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Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:23 +0100
From: weberwu Subject: Single point of failure in the Berlin Train System The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years, demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse. Many cars have been taken out of service for all sorts of ailments, and having pruned the maintenance shops and the drivers to a bare minimum, there is no room for dealing with problems. And there have been problems galore. Berliners joked that it could not possibly get worse, but today (15 Dec 2011) the S-Bahn proved that it could, indeed, because it has a single point of failure. All switches, all electronic signals, all information is centralized in one station in Halensee. And the electricity went out during a routine test of the emergency electrical system today, according to RBB [1], a local news station. The emergency system did not kick in - and then nothing worked. Only two train lines that still have analogue signals and switches were in operation, the rest was out - and the central operations was also affected. They had no information on where the trains were. Many people were trapped in trains stranded between stations. Angry passengers opened the doors, got out and walked the tracks to the nearest station, continuing by bus, subway, or taxi. It took about 3 hours after electricity was restored to have some sort of traffic running. The Internet information page by the S-Bahn was down, the server was not able to cope with the traffic. Customers used Twitter to announce trains in motion, helping people to find some way to get to work or school. [1] http://www.rbb-online.de/nachrichten...sfall_bei.html Prof. Dr. Debora Weber-Wulff, HTW Berlin, Treskowallee 8, 10313 Berlin Tel: +49-30-5019-2440 http://www.f4.htw-berlin.de/people/weberwu/ |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Dec 29, 11:30*am, SB wrote:
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:23 +0100 From: weberwu Subject: Single point of failure in the Berlin Train System The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years, demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse. Many cars have been taken out of service for all sorts of ailments, and having pruned the maintenance shops and the drivers to a bare minimum, there is no room for dealing with problems. And there have been problems galore. Berliners joked that it could not possibly get worse, but today (15 Dec 2011) the S-Bahn proved that it could, indeed, because it has a single point of failure. All switches, all electronic signals, all information is centralized in one station in Halensee. And the electricity went out during a routine test of the emergency electrical system today, according to RBB [1], a local news station. *The emergency system did not kick in - and then nothing worked. Only two train lines that still have analogue signals and switches were in operation, the rest was out - and the central operations was also affected. They had no information on where the trains were. Many people were trapped in trains stranded between stations. *Angry passengers opened the doors, got out and walked the tracks to the nearest station, continuing by bus, subway, or taxi. It took about 3 hours after electricity was restored to have some sort of traffic running. The Internet information page by the S-Bahn was down, the server was not able to cope with the traffic. *Customers used Twitter to announce trains in motion, helping people to find some way to get to work or school. [1]http://www.rbb-online.de/nachrichten/vermischtes/2011_12/komplett_aus.... Prof. Dr. Debora Weber-Wulff, HTW Berlin, Treskowallee 8, 10313 Berlin Tel: +49-30-5019-2440http://www.f4.htw-berlin.de/people/weberwu/ BlackBerry had a similar outage problem, the backup system worked when tested but didn't when there was a failure Patrick |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
SB wrote:
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:23 +0100 From: weberwu Subject: Single point of failure in the Berlin Train System The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years, demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse. Many cars have been taken out of service for all sorts of ailments, and having pruned the maintenance shops and the drivers to a bare minimum, there is no room for dealing with problems. And there have been problems galore. The Berlin S-Bahn getting "pruned" a little bit concerning staff still needs significantly more staff per passenger kilometre, passenger carried, train or seat kilometres or network length offered than any other S-Bahn system in Germany. These benchmarking figures for Berlin are between 20% and 50% below those of others German agglomerations, while punctuality and quality of service offered elsewhere is much better. This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. Tendering the S-Bahn services could be the first step. Oliver Schnell |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
SB schrieb: The Berlin light rail train system, The S-Bahn isn't a light rail system, at least not by European standards. By US standards, it would be, but by US standards, the ICE is a light rail system, too. Many people were trapped in trains stranded between stations. Angry passengers opened the doors, got out and walked the tracks to the nearest station, continuing by bus, subway, or taxi. It took about 3 hours after electricity was restored to have some sort of traffic running. Without the angry passengers, it might have been 1 hour. "Persons on the tracks" means, that operation can't resume, even with everything back to normal. The Internet information page by the S-Bahn was down, the server was not able to cope with the traffic. Fearless prediction: The same would happen to government servers in a catastrophe situation. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:30:37 -0800 (PST)
SB wrote: Berliners joked that it could not possibly get worse, but today (15 Dec 2011) the S-Bahn proved that it could, indeed, because it has a single point of failure. All switches, all electronic signals, all information is centralized in one station in Halensee. And the Probably designed by the same geniuses that thought linking train door interlocks in new trains to GPS signals was a good idea. The driver now can't open the doors by mistake when the train isn't at a station. No, but neither could he open the doors where the GPS signal is poor like in, oh I don't know, stations that have an office block about them that block the signal such as at London Victoria. And of course if someone has a GPS blocker handy ... B2003 |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
On 29 Dec 2011 12:16:58 GMT
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote: Without the angry passengers, it might have been 1 hour. "Persons on the tracks" means, that operation can't resume, even with everything back to normal. People are not dumb cattle and will not just sit on a train with no information forever if they can get out and continue their journey on foot. This has happened in the UK a number of times and train operators need to take human behaviour into account when failures happen. Just expecting people to sit and wait for an indeterminate period of time and do nothing is moronic. B2003 |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Dec 29, 12:15*pm, Oliver Schnell wrote:
SB wrote: Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:23 +0100 From: weberwu Subject: Single point of failure in the Berlin Train System The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years, demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse. Many cars have been taken out of service for all sorts of ailments, and having pruned the maintenance shops and the drivers to a bare minimum, there is no room for dealing with problems. And there have been problems galore. The Berlin S-Bahn getting "pruned" a little bit concerning staff still needs significantly more staff per passenger kilometre, passenger carried, train or seat kilometres or network length offered than any other S-Bahn system in Germany. Why do they still use platform dispatchers? Why not use the signalling system to regulate trains? |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:15:26 +0000 (UTC), Oliver Schnell
wrote: This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. It's just DB AG, no? As for tendering, that's a good way to make it cost more. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
happen here...??
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 05:10:08 -0800 (PST), EE507
wrote: Why do they still use platform dispatchers? The same reason LUL do, presumably - because DOO monitors are hard to use with big crowds. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 29.12.2011 13:15, misanthropis Oliver Schnell wrote:
This rotten company in Berlin should be closed. Tendering the S-Bahn services could be the first step. Maybe you want to retry fascism again in order to smash the trade unions? Put workers in concentration camps and smash their skulls so that they never again try to defend their wages and working conditions? |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
EE507 schrieb: Why do they still use platform dispatchers? Why not use the signalling system to regulate trains? Of about 170 stations, about 70 still have platform crew - required, if the driver does not have full overview of the train. This number will get reduced to 20 stations, as soon as "ZAT-FM" really works. ZAT-FM transmits camera pictures into the cab, and the EBA requires a 0.02% probability for transmission errors. It was supposed to work by 2009, but didn't. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Neil Williams schrieb: It's just DB AG, no? 100% owned by DB. As for tendering, that's a good way to make it cost more. Please name a single tender in Germany (of many dozen) with that effect. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 29/12/2011 13:10, EE507 wrote:
On Dec 29, 12:15 pm, Oliver wrote: wrote: Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:23 +0100 From: Subject: Single point of failure in the Berlin Train System The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years, demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse. Many cars have been taken out of service for all sorts of ailments, and having pruned the maintenance shops and the drivers to a bare minimum, there is no room for dealing with problems. And there have been problems galore. The Berlin S-Bahn getting "pruned" a little bit concerning staff still needs significantly more staff per passenger kilometre, passenger carried, train or seat kilometres or network length offered than any other S-Bahn system in Germany. Why do they still use platform dispatchers? Why not use the signalling system to regulate trains? The signals refer to the ROW only. Platform dispatchers on the Berlin S-Bahn exist to spot the platform and make sure that the doors are closed, that nobody is caught in train doors and to signal the train to depart. We have the exact same system here in London. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 29/12/11 12:15, Oliver Schnell wrote:
These benchmarking figures for Berlin are between 20% and 50% below those of others German agglomerations, while punctuality and quality of service offered elsewhere is much better. Ah, if only the DR and DDR were still around to run it, eh? Perhaps a business opportunity for uk.railway's resident Erich Honecker Appreciation Society. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
happen here...??
On 29 Dec 2011 18:19:41 GMT, Hans-Joachim Zierke
wrote: Please name a single tender in Germany (of many dozen) with that effect. I don't know specifics - but in principle a profit layer is added, staff are cut or service is cut. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 29/12/11 16:23, Lüko Willms wrote:
Maybe you want to retry fascism again in order to smash the trade unions? Put workers in concentration camps and smash their skulls so that they never again try to defend their wages and working conditions? I think you'll find that was how your friends in the east did it, with added machine guns if they tried to emigrate. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 29/12/2011 12:16, Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
SB schrieb: The Berlin light rail train system, The S-Bahn isn't a light rail system, at least not by European standards. By US standards, it would be, but by US standards, the ICE is a light rail system, too. The S-Bahn is way to heavy to be a light rail system in anybody's book, including in the US, I think. Same goes for the ICE. The Berlin Strassenbahn would be another story, however. Many people were trapped in trains stranded between stations. Angry passengers opened the doors, got out and walked the tracks to the nearest station, continuing by bus, subway, or taxi. It took about 3 hours after electricity was restored to have some sort of traffic running. Similar situations have happened here on the London Underground. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 29.12.2011 20:43, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 29/12/11 16:23, Lüko Willms wrote: Maybe you want to retry fascism again in order to smash the trade unions? Put workers in concentration camps and smash their skulls so that they never again try to defend their wages and working conditions? I think you'll find that was how your friends in the east did it, with added machine guns if they tried to emigrate. Obviously you have the opposited impression (we know, that you are an impressionist) than this other rightist. Herr Schnell thinks that it is the heritage of the GDR that the rail workers in Berlin are so "lazy", as he would describe it. They are not accustomed to the capitalist whip as their colleagues in the West, how got it beaten into them over decades that they risk their lives, or at least their livelyhoods, when they do not obey their master. But, please excuse me for bothering you with facts. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 29.12.2011 20:42, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 29/12/11 12:15, Oliver Schnell wrote: These benchmarking figures for Berlin are between 20% and 50% below those of others German agglomerations, while punctuality and quality of service offered elsewhere is much better. Ah, if only the DR and DDR were still around to run it, eh? Perhaps a business opportunity for uk.railway's resident Erich Honecker Appreciation Society. Well, Herr Schnell is like you: those goddam workers had a too good life in GDR times are are not yet beaten enough into submission to the new capitalist times. The thing is that railway workers are workers, and not so easily purged as all the professors at the university and journalists in the media. People like you and Herr Schnell think that the workers would simply bow and when they are shown the capitalist whip. It is not so easy for you misantropists. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 29/12/11 21:02, Lüko Willms wrote:
Obviously you have the opposited impression (we know, that you are an impressionist) ... Ooh, Betty. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 29/12/11 21:05, Lüko Willms wrote:
The thing is that railway workers are workers, and not so easily purged as all the professors at the university and journalists in the media. And if there is one group who should know about purging, it's apologists for Stalinism.[1] I bow, Comrade Willms, to your superior knowledge of such things. Herr Dr Ian [1] Soviet railway workers were purged by an NKVD order of 29th July 1937 |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
Neil Williams schrieb: Please name a single tender in Germany (of many dozen) with that effect. I don't know specifics - Most of the results get published, 2/3 of the former subsidy is a common result. but in principle a profit layer is added, ??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the 15 - 20% range. The profit margin of competitors is considerably lower. (As soon as the services get tendered, DB offers with a lower margin, too.) staff are cut or service is cut. The lower subsidies have been used for a /considerable/ addition of train kilometers in Germany. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:05:33 -0800 (PST), D1039
wrote: On Dec 29, 11:30*am, SB wrote: Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:23 +0100 From: weberwu Subject: Single point of failure in the Berlin Train System The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years, demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse. Many cars have been taken out of service for all sorts of ailments, and having pruned the maintenance shops and the drivers to a bare minimum, there is no room for dealing with problems. And there have been problems galore. Berliners joked that it could not possibly get worse, but today (15 Dec 2011) the S-Bahn proved that it could, indeed, because it has a single point of failure. All switches, all electronic signals, all information is centralized in one station in Halensee. And the electricity went out during a routine test of the emergency electrical system today, according to RBB [1], a local news station. *The emergency system did not kick in - and then nothing worked. Only two train lines that still have analogue signals and switches were in operation, the rest was out - and the central operations was also affected. They had no information on where the trains were. Many people were trapped in trains stranded between stations. *Angry passengers opened the doors, got out and walked the tracks to the nearest station, continuing by bus, subway, or taxi. It took about 3 hours after electricity was restored to have some sort of traffic running. The Internet information page by the S-Bahn was down, the server was not able to cope with the traffic. *Customers used Twitter to announce trains in motion, helping people to find some way to get to work or school. [1]http://www.rbb-online.de/nachrichten/vermischtes/2011_12/komplett_aus... Prof. Dr. Debora Weber-Wulff, HTW Berlin, Treskowallee 8, 10313 Berlin Tel: +49-30-5019-2440http://www.f4.htw-berlin.de/people/weberwu/ BlackBerry had a similar outage problem, the backup system worked when tested but didn't when there was a failure London Underground managed to have at least two large-scale breakdowns in the past before they re-arranged their power supplies. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
|
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
d schrieb: People are not dumb cattle and will not just sit on a train with no information forever if they can get out and continue their journey on foot. This has happened in the UK a number of times and train operators need to take human behaviour into account when failures happen. Just expecting people to sit and wait for an indeterminate period of time and do nothing is moronic. I think that this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRhNAql6foA qualifies for "moronic". Therefore, if the passengers leave the train, interruption of traffic is the only option available. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 29.12.2011 22:25, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 29/12/11 21:05, Lüko Willms wrote: The thing is that railway workers are workers, and not so easily purged as all the professors at the university and journalists in the media. And if there is one group who should know about purging, it's apologists for Stalinism.[1] Whatever; the purge in the ex-GDR was of a magnitude which exceeded everything ever experienced under the rule of a stalinist burocrady. I bow, Comrade Willms, to your superior knowledge of such things. You have comrades? You make me laugh. My knowledge is "superior" simply because I stick to the facts and not to propaganda. That is the contradiction between us. Herr Dr Ian [1] Soviet railway workers were purged by an NKVD order of 29th July 1937 Were they? All of them? Herr Schnell wants to "purge" ALL railway workers in Berlin (at least those working for the S-Bahn), making them unemployed (which means in today's Germany to fall quickly into 'Hartz4'). Some of them might be re-employed, says Herr Schnell, after a new selective process of recruitment, even for those who have decades of experience in operating the S-Bahn network. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it? happen here...??
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
Neil Williams schrieb: Please name a single tender in Germany (of many dozen) with that effect. I don't know specifics - Most of the results get published, 2/3 of the former subsidy is a common result. This is valid for the first tendering of a specific line or network, but unfortunately cannot be redone additionally at the second/third/ ... tender. but in principle a profit layer is added, ??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the 15 - 20% range. The profit margin of competitors is considerably lower. (As soon as the services get tendered, DB offers with a lower margin, too.) staff are cut or service is cut. The lower subsidies have been used for a /considerable/ addition of train kilometers in Germany. What increased passengers figures significantly within the last 15 years. Oliver Schnell |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 30.12.2011 07:09, schrieb Lüko Willms:
Herr Schnell wants to "purge" ALL railway workers in Berlin (at least those working for the S-Bahn), making them unemployed (which means in today's Germany to fall quickly into 'Hartz4'). Some of them might be re-employed, says Herr Schnell, after a new selective process of recruitment, even for those who have decades of experience in operating the S-Bahn network. I forgot to mention that, according to Herr Schnells plan, the workers would be allowed to reapply for their job (at much worse conditions) only at a completely new company which would not have the old collective contracts with the trade union and the works council on the books, so that the workers would be initially stripped of all their acquisitions which they got over the past decades and which could not be destroyed by the takeover of the GDR by the separate West state. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
Am 29.12.2011 22:43, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke:
but in principle a profit layer is added, ??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the 15 - 20% range. The profit margin of competitors is considerably lower. (As soon as the services get tendered, DB offers with a lower margin, too.) Not the profit margin is lower, but the wages are lower and the working conditions are worse. That is the purpose of the tendering and privatisation: to drive worker's wages down. DB and DB's competitors all explain it clear and loud: without driving down wages, the competition does not work. Wages are the only real differential. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 30/12/11 06:09, Lüko Willms wrote:
My knowledge is "superior" simply because I stick to the facts and not to propaganda. Who says the Germans have no sense of humour? Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?
happen here...??
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 21:43:29 +0000 (UTC), Hans-Joachim Zierke
wrote: ??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the 15 - 20% range. And where does that go? The Government? Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??happen here...??
Neil Williams schrieb: ??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the 15 - 20% range. And where does that go? The Government? No. Take your guess: How's DB able, to go shopping in Britain? As a passenger, I'm interested in more trains, not in DB buying Arriva etc. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?happen here...??
Oliver Schnell schrieb: Most of the results get published, 2/3 of the former subsidy is a common result. This is valid for the first tendering of a specific line or network, but unfortunately cannot be redone additionally at the second/third/ ... tender. Sure. Everything else would be too good to be true, won't it? ;-) But there still are plenty of inflated contracts, and at the second tender, there still might be a few percent to gain. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it?? happen here...??
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
Neil Williams schrieb: ??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the 15 - 20% range. And where does that go? The Government? No. Take your guess: How's DB able, to go shopping in Britain? One should add: The Government decided to receive an annual return due to its 100% share in DB of 500 mill. Euro. As a passenger, I'm interested in more trains, not in DB buying Arriva etc. In the very end such investments *should* show (that does not necessarily mean, that there actually will be) a reasonable interest. So irrespective if the capital needed is from profits of subsidised traffic or other sources, a reasonable ROI has to apply. BTW: You could be also interested in lower fares, more comfort, more ... Oliver Schnell |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 30.12.2011 11:48, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 30/12/11 06:09, Lüko Willms wrote: My knowledge is "superior" simply because I stick to the facts and not to propaganda. Who says the Germans have no sense of humour? You don't have any. But you have sense of facts: you know how to avoid them like the plague. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
"Lüko Willms" wrote in message ... Am 30.12.2011 07:09, schrieb Lüko Willms: Herr Schnell wants to "purge" ALL railway workers in Berlin (at least those working for the S-Bahn), making them unemployed (which means in today's Germany to fall quickly into 'Hartz4'). Some of them might be re-employed, says Herr Schnell, after a new selective process of recruitment, even for those who have decades of experience in operating the S-Bahn network. I forgot to mention that, according to Herr Schnells plan, the workers would be allowed to reapply for their job (at much worse conditions) only at a completely new company which would not have the old collective contracts with the trade union and the works council on the books, so that the workers would be initially stripped of all their acquisitions which they got over the past decades and which could not be destroyed by the takeover of the GDR by the separate West state. The workers need a good lawyer who understands the German equivalent of TUPE (Transfer of Undertakings - Protection of Employment) Regulations, and the European Directive on which it is based. Or perhaps Herr Schnell has a cunning plan to get Germany to withdraw from the European Union. ;-) Peter Peter |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 30.12.2011 18:14, schrieb Peter Masson:
I forgot to mention that, according to Herr Schnells plan, the workers would be allowed to reapply for their job (at much worse conditions) only at a completely new company which would not have the old collective contracts with the trade union and the works council on the books, so that the workers would be initially stripped of all their acquisitions which they got over the past decades and which could not be destroyed by the takeover of the GDR by the separate West state. The workers need a good lawyer who understands the German equivalent of TUPE (Transfer of Undertakings - Protection of Employment) Regulations, and the European Directive on which it is based. That is what is happening in the Thatcherized Britain, but not in Germany. Tendering of transit (rail, tram or bus) operations in Germany does exclude the taking over of the operation as it is, i.e. just the exchange of the leading personnel, the stationary and the train liveries, but the establishment of a completely new operation with their own "new" workers, vehicles etc. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
happen here...??
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:55:17 +0100, Lüko
wrote: That is what is happening in the Thatcherized Britain, but not in Germany. TUPE is not Thatcherite, quite the opposite. Is there no German equivalent? Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Peter Masson schrieb: The workers need a good lawyer who understands the German equivalent of TUPE (Transfer of Undertakings - Protection of Employment) Regulations, and the European Directive on which it is based. Please name the "German equivalent of TUPE". Practically, DB will not fire anybody, if they loose parts of the S-Bahn, or all of it. People will get redistributed within the company, former S-Bahn drivers might run RE or RB. Those, who want to rehire at a different company now running the S-Bahn, will do so. Due to a quick recovery from the crisis, almost all TOCs in Germany are short on drivers, so the situation for drivers is quite good. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it??happen here...??
Oliver Schnell schrieb: In the very end such investments *should* show (that does not necessarily mean, that there actually will be) a reasonable interest. So irrespective if the capital needed is from profits of subsidised traffic or other sources, a reasonable ROI has to apply. Please name /any/ foreign investment of DB, which shows a decent ROI. BTW: You could be also interested in lower fares, more comfort, more ... Sure, but "more trains" is what we really got, paid by the saved subsidies, so that's realistic. We didn't get lower fares or more comfort. Hans-Joachim -- Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011 http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg |
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