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Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
It has been well document in a number of press reports that the service disruptions of 2009/2010 were caused by a lack of rolling stock, which was in turn caused by a lack of maintenance, which was in turn caused by a closedown of an important workshop, which had been ordered by the management to reduce costs, which was in turn done to transfer higher profits to the owner company DB. So the root cause of all the problems is the desire to make profit in the management, The desire has been to convert the S-Bahn Berlin GmbH into a company showing comparable efficiency than other S-Bahn Systems in Germany. Is this a mistake? It wouldn't be a mistake if it actually had been the management's desire. Did you actually read what I wrote above? Yes. But this is not the full story. You forgot the technical problems existing on a distinct type of EMUs of the S-Bahn, which roots in the construction, not in their maintennance. And cutting maintenance facilties to a level showed to be adequate to other S-Bahn systems in Germany should have worked oerfectly. But the staff brushed the management when working according to the book. Even after this cut the S-Bahn Berlin is still quite unefficient. You should have said: Because of this cut. Without it there wouldn't have been any service disruptions. It has been inefficient vefore and still is, or hwo would you call that, when S-Bahn Berlin needs to employees where one can do the job at other S-Bahn systems? The mentality to run something efficient is "disastrous"? Could you try to address what I said? I do all the time. Please tell me then, how Deutsche Bahn manages to do well in other S-Bahn systems in Germany like Hamburg. Munich or Stuttgart. Are they? Yes, they do. I don't live there and I don't follow the local press. Are there really no problems there? It may be not 100% perfect, but all the other systems are well run, and usually work well and need far less staff per passenger kilomerte, train kilometre, network length etc. How to make profit with a company with a lack of 50% in efficiency compared to other ones, when all bidding for the same tender? The subsidies are coming in regardless. Do they? Yes. And that is why privatisation is pointless. The amount of suibsidies has not to be a fixum. This is one of the key results in 15 years experience of tendering rail services in Germany, I snipped everything else you said, because you never addressed the problems of privatisation. There is no problem in privatisation. There is a problem of of badly run companies, a problem which per definition not bound to the type of company (public or private). And the Berlin S.Bahn is such a badly run company. I can well understand that you snipped all, as you have no arguments to explain, why the S-Bahn Berlin needs so much more staff to offer a worse product than elsewhere. Oliver Schnell |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 02/01/2012 23:47, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Graeme wrote in : Is there a good book in English about the Berlin S& U Bahns? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Berlin-S-Bah...dp/1854141856/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/Berlin-U-Bah...dp/1854141848/ Better written than some of their German counterparts. Thanks, I've got other books by him -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 20:46:35 +0100, Wolfgang Schwanke
wrote: That is an important distinction. That it is, but it is still nationalised. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
happen here...??
On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:36:05 +0100, Lüko
wrote: Really, really crazy. Not at all. Have you ever looked up "nationalised" in a dictionary? Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 03/01/2012 00:19, Lüko Willms wrote:
Please elaborate on the subject of discussion instead of constantly trying to turn the attention of your public away from it by makeing loud noises about off-topic issues? A tip: when you're engaged in a ****ing contest about German political systems in two UK newsgroups you're in no position to complain about someone else being off-topic. -- Graham Nye news(a)thenyes.org.uk |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 03/01/12 00:06, Lüko Willms wrote:
insult. Claiming false facts to denigrate the standing of other people, against better knowledge. Says the man who has repeatedly claimed that I am a Hitler apologist. Ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 03/01/2012 09:47, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 03/01/12 00:06, Lüko Willms wrote: insult. Claiming false facts to denigrate the standing of other people, against better knowledge. Says the man who has repeatedly claimed that I am a Hitler apologist. I thought Lüko was just defining his personal approach to discussions. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
happen here...??
On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 00:55:13 +0100, Lüko
wrote: Are we talking about the ICE-1 or the ICE-3? ICE1 - the wheel design that caused Eschede. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
Graham Nye disait le 01/03/12 que :
On 03/01/2012 00:19, Lüko Willms wrote: Please elaborate on the subject of discussion instead of constantly trying to turn the attention of your public away from it by makeing loud noises about off-topic issues? A tip: when you're engaged in a ****ing contest about German political systems in two UK newsgroups you're in no position to complain about someone else being off-topic. What the **** does a discussion about Berlin S-Bahn in 2 uk newgroups ? Stop crappy crossposting ! -- Le travail n'est pas une bonne chose. Si ça l'était, les riches l'auraient accaparé |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
Am 02.01.2012 21:47, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke: Friedrichstraße was quite a complicated labyrinth back then. I mostly preferred to cross there, when I did not come by car. If you'd been an Ossie, presumably you wouldn't have had the option to cross anywhere (without being shot)? |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
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Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
Graham Nye disait le 01/03/12 que :
The S-Bahn part is at least rail-related. Perhaps one day I'll get to try it out (via Brussels and Cologne, of course). But niot related to UK, and cross-hierarchy crossposting is a pain in the ass, so please, do not put uk* back when I remove them in fu2. -- Le travail n'est pas une bonne chose. Si ça l'était, les riches l'auraient accaparé |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 10:47, schrieb The Real Doctor:
Says the man who has repeatedly claimed that I am a Hitler apologist. if you were German, you would be. you show again that you are a shamless liar and slanderer. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 10:49, schrieb Graeme Wall:
I thought Lüko was just defining his personal approach to discussions. which is: sticking to the facts. But people like you do not want to be bothered by facts. So you start deviating from the topic, lying and slandering and insulting. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 01:46, schrieb The Real Doctor:
That is why I am equally happy to condemn British imperialism in India, French imperialism in Indo-china, Soviet imperialism in central Europe and Spanish/Argentinian imperialism in the South Atlantic. tongue in cheek. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 02:19, schrieb Ross:
Why do you resort to accusing people with whom you disagree of "making things up", Lüko, and why do you_always_ launch personal attacks on them? isn't it ridiculous to claim that the nature of a company stops being a "real commercial company" when the composition of her shareholders changes? L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 10:43, schrieb Neil Williams:
Have you ever looked up "nationalised" in a dictionary? Tell me more about your ideas how trading shares at the stock exchange changes the nature of a company, switching it from "real commercial" to the opposite. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 08:27, schrieb Oliver Schnell:
There is no problem in privatisation. Amen. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 01:41, schrieb The Real Doctor:
What has that to do with the current situation of the Berlin railway workers? I don't know. At last, you admit that you do not have a clue about what we are talking about, and that all your deviations were just to try to avoid addressing the actual facts. You're the one who seems to think that the DB workforce in Berlin should be happy with DDR standards of living and freedom. I do not judge about what people _should_ or should not be happy with. YOU do, as does Herr Schnell. I just pointed out the fact that Herr Schnell is upset about the Berlin railway workers still enjoying labor standards which they had acquired during GDR times. It is him who called the S-Bahn Berlin GmbH the "last socialistic company" in Germany. When I pointed to what Herr Schnell is saying, you were going ballistic with all your Cold War propaganda pieces in the style of the "Five Minute Hate" of George Orwell's "1984" So, here we finally are, after all your slanders and insults, that you do admit that you do not know what relationship all your utterances have with the subject under discussion. Why didn't you say that right away, or just remain silent? L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
Am 03.01.2012 02:19, schrieb Ross: Why do you resort to accusing people with whom you disagree of "making things up", Lüko, and why do you_always_ launch personal attacks on them? isn't it ridiculous to claim that the nature of a company stops being a "real commercial company" when the composition of her shareholders changes? Not at all. If a company is dominated by one single shareholder, and that shareholder has other interests, then you have a potential conflict of interest. It's why monopolies are restricted in the EU and other free capitalist countries. In Britain, the Competition Commission has to approve takeovers if there would be a restriction of competition, and if a single shareholder (or connected group) wish to acquire 30% or more of a public company, they must make an offer for the whole company, as it would otherwise disadvantage unconnected shareholders (and may be blocked if there would be an unacceptable loss of competition). Of course, socialist countries used to believe in state monopolies as a matter of principle. I'm not sure if many truly socialist countries still remain, however. Certainly, countries like China and Vietnam are no longer socialist, though Cuba and North Korea perhaps still are. Is it their system that you advocate? Do you think workers' rights are better protected in North than in South Korea? |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 01:48, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
In 1987, the West German and West Berlin media (and authorities) waged a big campaign against the GDR to force them to close the last hole in the wall, and to act as a auxiliary police force of the West Berlin cops. People who landed at the Schönefeld airport and who had a transit visa for the GDR could enter West Berlin via the Friedrichstraße checkpoint. The West Berlin police did not want to establish their own immigration control. They wanted the GDR border police to do it for them. The Wessies detested the free travel across the Berlin wall... The Western allies considered the boundary between East Berlin and West Berlin a sector boundary not different from the boundaries between US and British sector. so they were dealing with fictions and not with facts. But facts are stubborn things. But it was not the Allied occupation forces which demanded that the GDR close the Wall completly, but the West German and West Berlin authorities. Therefore West Berlin authorities did not install any passport controls at border crossings between East and West Berlin. But then they should not complain that people travel from GDR to Westberlin. If they would have wanted to change that, they would have to install immigration checks on _their_ side of the border. If they had wanted, they might perhaps even been allowed to install those within the Bhf Friedrichstraße check point. Instead they asked the GDR government to close the Berlin Wall completly, and not let anybody cross the border unchecked. It is all a disgusting hypocrisy. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
Am 03.01.2012 10:43, schrieb Neil Williams: Have you ever looked up "nationalised" in a dictionary? Tell me more about your ideas how trading shares at the stock exchange changes the nature of a company, switching it from "real commercial" to the opposite. Who appoints the directors and senior managers in DB, and sets the objectives, etc? Presuming it's the government, it's the government that controls the company. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 10:53, schrieb Neil Williams:
Are we talking about the ICE-1 or the ICE-3? ICE1 - the wheel design that caused Eschede. That was still mainly designed in the Bundesbahn offices. The ICE-1 ub their beginnings made a rattling noise in the cabins, and DB tried to do away this noise. And then they had a lack of maintenence and a passenger who did not pull the emergency brake when part of the wheel tyre (of steel) shot up in front of his seat, and then there was this nasty bridge which collapsed over the train... A number of bad circumstances came together to produce a horrible accident. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 14:33, schrieb Recliner:
isn't it ridiculous to claim that the nature of a company stops being a "real commercial company" when the composition of her shareholders changes? Not at all. If a company is dominated by one single shareholder, and that shareholder has other interests, then you have a potential conflict of interest. It's why monopolies are restricted in the EU and other What do you to about the monopolies of the little bakery or agriculturer which has only one single owner? A horrible sight, or what? Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
"Lüko Willms" wrote in message
Am 03.01.2012 14:33, schrieb Recliner: isn't it ridiculous to claim that the nature of a company stops being a "real commercial company" when the composition of her shareholders changes? Not at all. If a company is dominated by one single shareholder, and that shareholder has other interests, then you have a potential conflict of interest. It's why monopolies are restricted in the EU and other What do you to about the monopolies of the little bakery or agriculturer which has only one single owner? A horrible sight, or what? It's not a monopoly if there's other bakers or farmers. Ownership doesn't make it a monopoly: lack of competition does. For example, if a small, private bakery produces poor quality or over-priced products, it would soon lose business to others in the area and may go bust -- unless it's a state monopoly, with no competition allowed. Equally, if it treated its staff badly, they'd soon leave and go to work elsewhere. That's why competitive businesses tend to deliver a better service to customers and treat staff better than state monopolies. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
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Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Jan 3, 1:33*pm, Lüko Willms wrote:
* *Instead they asked the GDR government to close the Berlin Wall completly, and not let anybody cross the border unchecked. So in your world, the DDR only shot escapers because the west told them to? And you then talk about other people being free and easy with the facts? ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it happen here...??
I think the long distance platform at Friedrichstraße was also already open to West Berlin, but I am not sure of that. The long distance platforms at Friedrichstrasse were available only to West Berlin residents or anyone exiting East Berlin (with permits) through the passport control. They also had to be travelling to the West (eg you could not get on the Ost West express to Warsaw or beyond at Friedrichstrasse. East Berliners had to board it at Ostbahnhof (then Hauptbahnof) and West Berliners at Zoo or Wansee) because trains between Friedrichstrasse and Ostbahnhof could only be used by passengers transiting the DDR. The couple of daily trains that started at Zoo and went to Scandinavia via the train ferries were not advertised to stop at Friedrichstrasse (for the above reason), though they did for DDR customs checks. Through tickets to Berlin were always issued to Berlin Stadtbahn and were available to any destination along the Stadtbhan plus those stations (Lichtenberg Karlhorst etc ) that were used by terminating trains within the DDR and any station within or on the bits of the Ringbahn that were operating. Tickets via Berlin including the use of the S bahn between stations (throughout both East and West Berlin but if you got off a train at Friedrichstasse that terminated there you had to get pff there and get a DDR transit visa at the customs post and then use the S Bahn to Ostbahnhof (or wherever to continue your journey). On the through trains to the East transit transit visas to Poland and beyone were issued on the trains (as an alternative to the transit visa which they issued for transit from the West to West Berlin) |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 03/01/2012 13:15, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 03.01.2012 10:49, schrieb Graeme Wall: I thought Lüko was just defining his personal approach to discussions. which is: sticking to the facts. I was. But people like you do not want to be bothered by facts. So you start deviating from the topic, lying and slandering and insulting. More childish insults. -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could it
happen here...??
On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:18:35 +0100, Lüko
wrote: Tell me more about your ideas how trading shares at the stock exchange changes the nature of a company, switching it from "real commercial" to the opposite. That wasn't the point. Neil -- Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 15:12, schrieb ian batten:
Instead they asked the GDR government to close the Berlin Wall completly, and not let anybody cross the border unchecked. So in your world, the DDR only shot escapers because the west told them to? And you then talk about other people being free and easy with the facts? Mr. Batten is again gone ballistic with his Cold War hype. Take care of your blood pressure! Your violent fantasies may cause a heart attack! Couldn't someone talk to his doctor that he is gently barred from consulting the Netnews? It may become a lethal treat to that old man. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 14:34, schrieb Recliner:
Am 03.01.2012 10:43, schrieb Neil Williams: Have you ever looked up "nationalised" in a dictionary? Tell me more about your ideas how trading shares at the stock exchange changes the nature of a company, switching it from "real commercial" to the opposite. Who appoints the directors and senior managers in DB, and sets the objectives, etc? This is all well regulated in the law on Aktiengesellschaften (common stock companies would that be in English, I presume). So it is the "Aufsichtsrat" (advisory board?) http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/bahn/en/group/ataglance/supervisory__board/supervisory__board.html who recruits the CEO and other members of the "Vorstand" (board of management). members http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/bahn/en/group/ataglance/board__managers/board__managers.html Quoted from the first link above describing the supervisory board: "Ten members are elected by the shareholders' General Meeting. Ten members are elected by the employees. The Federal Republic of Germany, as long as it is the majority shareholder, has the right to appoint three members to the Supervisory Board." So the shareholder has three out of 20 votes in the supervisory board. Presuming it's the government, it's the government that controls the company. Only in a very very very indirect way. The federal government always refuses to interfere in the commercial operatiosn of the company. Just a few days ago, the govenment refused to interfere with the real estate sales of DB AG, as the parliamentary group of the Partei Die Linke had demanded. There is, though, a yearly "Finanzierungs- und Leistungsvereinbarung" between Deutsche Bahn AG and the federal governmant, which fixes what performance the government expects from DB, and the subsidies it gives for the network (track maintenance and new builds, not for rolling stock and operations). Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 17:28, schrieb Neil Williams:
On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:18:35 +0100, Lüko wrote: Tell me more about your ideas how trading shares at the stock exchange changes the nature of a company, switching it from "real commercial" to the opposite. That wasn't the point. YOU claimed this as YOUR point: Am 01.01.2012 20:29, schrieb Neil Williams: On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 16:16:43 +0100, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote: Re-nationalise it. A different commercial operator will squeeze it for profit just like the current one. DB isn't really a commercial operator; all their shares are owned by the German Government, no? Neil That is, simply by selling and buying shares on the stock exchange, the very nature of the company is being changed. Too strange, but YOUR statement. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 14:58, schrieb Recliner:
What do you to about the monopolies of the little bakery or agriculturer which has only one single owner? A horrible sight, or what? It's not a monopoly if there's other bakers or farmers. Ownership doesn't make it a monopoly: YOU wrote this: If a company is dominated by one single shareholder, and that shareholder has other interests, then you have a potential conflict of interest. It's why monopolies are restricted in the EU and other It's OK that you do not want to defend that, but you can't deny that you wrote this. Cheers, L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
Am 03.01.2012 16:19, schrieb Graeme Wall:
defining [my, LW's] personal approach to discussions. which is: sticking to the facts. I was. No, you are always going ballistic with lots of Cold War propaganda which has nothing to do with the issue under debate. And you are slandering and lying, distorting and inventing what I said. As Lenin already said: it is very difficult to find a honest opponent in the debate. L.W. |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 03/01/2012 17:14, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 03.01.2012 16:19, schrieb Graeme Wall: defining [my, LW's] personal approach to discussions. which is: sticking to the facts. I was. No, you are always going ballistic with lots of Cold War propaganda which has nothing to do with the issue under debate. And you are slandering and lying, distorting and inventing what I said. Liar -- Graeme Wall This account not read, substitute trains for rail. Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 03/01/2012 17:11, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 03.01.2012 14:58, schrieb Recliner: What do you to about the monopolies of the little bakery or agriculturer which has only one single owner? A horrible sight, or what? It's not a monopoly if there's other bakers or farmers. Ownership doesn't make it a monopoly: YOU wrote this: If a company is dominated by one single shareholder, and that shareholder has other interests, then you have a potential conflict of interest. It's why monopolies are restricted in the EU and other It's OK that you do not want to defend that, but you can't deny that you wrote this. Why would Recliner want to deny writing that? It's an entirely reasonable thing to have written in its context, which was discussion of a state- owned railway company. It is you who has sought to move the goal posts by introducing discussion of one-person owned businesses, presumably so you can wriggle out of answering Recliner's question to you: "Do you think workers' rights are better protected in North than in South Korea?" Well, do you? -- Graham Nye news(a)thenyes.org.uk |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On Jan 3, 5:14*pm, Lüko Willms wrote:
* As Lenin already said: it is very difficult to find a honest opponent in the debate. He also said "Hang (hang without fail, so the people see) no fewer than one hundred known kulaks, rich men, bloodsuckers." Oh, and "It is necessary — secretly and urgently to prepare the terror. And on Tuesday we will decide whether it will be through SNK or otherwise." But presumably, given you deny the crimes of Stalin and blame the west for the DDR's habit of shooting its citizens, the crimes of Lenin also didn't happen? ian |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 03/01/2012 17:14, Lüko Willms wrote:
As Lenin already said: it is very difficult to find a honest opponent in the debate. Why? Did he have them all shot? -- Graham Nye news(a)thenyes.org.uk |
Complete (almost) Shutdown of Berlin Train System - could ithappen here...??
On 01/01/2012 17:58, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Are you Lüko's twin? That's a silly question. I would say things were best at the end of the 1990s when the system was reunified and new extensions had been added, but the adverse effects of privatisation hadn't had time to kick in yet. Things have gone downhill since. Terminological issues alert: from a UK perspective, DB and its German subsidiaries are not privatised (or, if it is privatised, so was British Rail from 1962-ish). -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
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