Saw this article on the BBC website.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16357124

Ken Livingstone can criticise Boris Johnson for raising fares, but of
course he never did that when he was Mayor, did he?

Also of interest is the statement at the end of the article saying
that 40% of people travelling on London Buses are doing so for free or
at a discount.

I wonder what effect this 40% has on bus fares for the remaining 60%?

Also of interest is the statement at the end of the article saying
that 40% of people travelling on London Buses are doing so for free or
at a discount.

I wonder what effect this 40% has on bus fares for the remaining 60%?

When Ken introduced free bus travel for all children the cost was
estimated in 2005 at c.£m50 lost revenue. The numbers using the buses
around here for short journeys increased dramatically so I would expect
the long-run marginal cost to be much higher.

Oddly I could never find Ken's assessment of what free bus travel was
expected to do for levels of fitness and obesity among the capitals'
children. And IIRC he was deaf to the reports of reduced numbers of
paying passengers due to the behaviour of so many of the sweet little
things.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

In message
,
Paul writes

Also of interest is the statement at the end of the article saying
that 40% of people travelling on London Buses are doing so for free or
at a discount.

Presumably that includes the 1.2 million Freedom Pass users.

I wonder what effect this 40% has on bus fares for the remaining 60%?

London councils shell out almost 300 million pounds per annum for
Freedom Pass usage, so I doubt that has much impact on the 60%.

I don't know who (if anyone) subsidises the cost of student travel,
though, which doubtless accounts for much of the rest of the
free/discounted fares.

--
Paul Terry

On Dec 30, 2:15*am, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:20:25 -0800 (PST), Paul
wrote:

Saw this article on the BBC website.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16357124

Ken Livingstone can criticise Boris Johnson for raising fares, but of
course he never did that when he was Mayor, did he?

Oh come on - it's Mayoral election time. *Fares are an area of
vulnerability for the current Mayor because no one likes paying more
for public transport and people have short memories of what Ken did 5
years ago. *The Mayor can, and I am sure will, point to the fact that
he has not increased the precept since taking office. *Ken increased
the precept every year. *Naturally enough there are different
approaches between the candidates as to what is spent and how the
money is raised.

Of course Ken will play games with fares - he has a long track record
of doing so and several of his initiatives worked well (fares zones,
low bus fares, introduction of Travelcard) and were popular at the
time. *They also helped reduce LT's costs because fare payment was
moved off system and bus boarding times were quicker. *Oyster has
taken those benefits on a lot further since then. *Boris has been
consistent in sticking to the RPI+2% inflator for fares in order to
maintain funding for TfL's operations and investment. *Patronage and
revenue has run ahead of budget for most of the Mayor's term anyway
and we're not exactly experiencing an economic boom! *If the economy
was doing better then I expect TfL would be raking the money in.

Whether we like it or not I think the comment by Isabel Dedring is
correct - in comparative terms London bus fares are cheap and the
network density and level of service is way ahead of the rest of the
country. *Only very short distance fares tend to cheaper than the TfL
flat fare and it's not unknown for people to be paying £2-£4 single
for journeys over modest distances outside of London. *The only saving
grace in deregulation land tends to be operator specific day rover
tickets which offer reasonable value for money (compared to singles).

ISTR that previous studies have shown that the average London bus fare
is considerably lower than elsewhere in the country. *All that Boris's
policy does is narrow the gap somewhat.

Also of interest is the statement at the end of the article saying
that 40% of people travelling on London Buses are doing so for free or
at a discount.

I wonder what effect this 40% has on bus fares for the remaining 60%?

Probably not a lot given there is a high level of overall subsidy
anyway and much of it is funded from government grant and not fares or
the Mayoral precept. *Freedom Passes are funded by the Boroughs and
they also bare the cost of English Concessionary Pass use in London.

I am genuinely surprised the full scale of concessions has lasted
through the current Mayor's term. *I had expected some to have been
trimmed or withdrawn by now but I guess the risk of adverse political
fall out was too great.

--
Paul C

CASH fares in other cities are considerably cheaper than London. For
example:-

Edinburgh - £1.30
Nottingham - £1.70
Glasgow - £1.80 (90p for short journeys)
Birmingham - £1.80 (£1.60 for short journeys)

All these cities offer day tickets and period tickets as well.

Whilst the Oyster fare in London is cheaper in all cases except
Edinburgh, none of these cities seems to penalise the casual visitor
who needs to pay a cash fare so much as London does.

I realise that most visitors to London will buy a one day or period
travelcard, but even this has become more difficult. In my opinion it
was a serious mistake to stop people from being able to buy a one day
travelcard from newsagents and ticket stops.

"Robin" wrote in message
...
Also of interest is the statement at the end of the article saying
that 40% of people travelling on London Buses are doing so for free or
at a discount.

I wonder what effect this 40% has on bus fares for the remaining 60%?

When Ken introduced free bus travel for all children the cost was
estimated in 2005 at c.£m50 lost revenue. The numbers using the buses
around here for short journeys increased dramatically so I would expect
the long-run marginal cost to be much higher.

Oddly I could never find Ken's assessment of what free bus travel was
expected to do for levels of fitness and obesity among the capitals'
children.

ISTM that they are going to get far fitter walking to/from the bus stop for
their free ride on the bus than if they nag mum/dad to drive them the whole
way

tim

ISTM that they are going to get far fitter walking to/from the bus
stop for their free ride on the bus than if they nag mum/dad to drive
them the whole way


Possibly true in some parts of London but the teens around here tended
not to have drivers to collect them. Most seemed to walk (often via the
fast food shop - but that component seems to remain judging by the
litter at the bus stops and on buses) . But it'd be nice to see some
evidence -and evidence of joined up thinking.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On 30/12/2011 13:27, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:00:45 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

[snip]

CASH fares in other cities are considerably cheaper than London. For
example:-

Edinburgh - £1.30
Nottingham - £1.70
Glasgow - £1.80 (90p for short journeys)
Birmingham - £1.80 (£1.60 for short journeys)

I have to say "so what"? Barely 2% of London bus passengers pay cash
on the bus. People use Oyster because it is cheap and convenient and
there are thousands and thousands of Oyster cards held by people who
don't live in London and may only visit occasionally. It's just the
same as me having Smartcards for various cities across the world
because it gets me easy and cheap usage of the public transport
systems. If we are making a sensible comparison we cannot base it on
a premise that ignores 98% of users so nice try in changing the
argument to cash fares but it won't wash.

If we had a proper national bus smartcard which all operators accepted
then I'd happily have one of those in my pocket and I'd use it.

That's coming.

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:41:36 +0000, "
wrote:

On 30/12/2011 13:27, Paul Corfield wrote:

If we had a proper national bus smartcard which all operators accepted
then I'd happily have one of those in my pocket and I'd use it.

That's coming.

Is it? Is there a proper plan

NO, it's just happening by stealth

and timescale to give full National
(i.e. England, Scotland, Wales and NI) smartcard issuing and
acceptance? Care to give a link or URL for the policy or project?

I thought First were not adopting ITSO and were, instead, adopting EMV
bank card acceptance on their subsidiaries?

All (English) bus operators are (soon to be) required to accept the new
electronic national "oldie" pass which I suspect is ITSO. It seems unlikely
that a bus operator would install anything else for their own system.

So whilst there's no plan to roll out a national payment card, there is a
plan for all buses to be able to accept a national payment card.

tim

In article ,
(tim....) wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:41:36 +0000, "
wrote:

On 30/12/2011 13:27, Paul Corfield wrote:

If we had a proper national bus smartcard which all operators accepted
then I'd happily have one of those in my pocket and I'd use it.

That's coming.

Is it? Is there a proper plan

NO, it's just happening by stealth

and timescale to give full National
(i.e. England, Scotland, Wales and NI) smartcard issuing and
acceptance? Care to give a link or URL for the policy or project?

I thought First were not adopting ITSO and were, instead, adopting EMV
bank card acceptance on their subsidiaries?

All (English) bus operators are (soon to be) required to accept the
new electronic national "oldie" pass which I suspect is ITSO. It
seems unlikely that a bus operator would install anything else for
their own system.

There's an ITSO logo on mine.

So whilst there's no plan to roll out a national payment card, there
is a plan for all buses to be able to accept a national payment card.

--
Colin Rosenstiel