Are there any places where you can, for example, just tank up and drive
off, and then later receive a bill in the post or have your bank account
linked to automatically take payment at the end of each month?

Um, anywhere that takes credit or debit cards?

Our local fuel company used to have a box full of locks and dials on
each gas pump. Each customer got a key, you unlocked your lock and
pumped, the gallons were counted on your dial, and he sent you a bill
at the end of the month. Then the owner retired, and they don't do
that any more.

It's the only place in the US I've bought gas at an unattended pump.
At places open to the public, fire regulations seem to require that
there be an attendant who can set off the fire suppression system.

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

UK credit card statements (including Amex) don't usually have
transaction numbers.

Ok. I bet the transactions are numbered, though.

You lose. What do we win?

Uh, always? What do you do at a fuel station which requires a credit
card before dispensing fuel, or at a restaurant, when the tip amount
to be charged is not known until later, or at a hotel that requires
a credit card to create a reservation and the same one or another
one to check in?

See previous gazillion messages.

--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

On 26-Feb-12 18:13, John Levine wrote:
Are there any places where you can, for example, just tank up and drive
off, and then later receive a bill in the post or have your bank account
linked to automatically take payment at the end of each month?

Um, anywhere that takes credit or debit cards?

Our local fuel company used to have a box full of locks and dials on
each gas pump. Each customer got a key, you unlocked your lock and
pumped, the gallons were counted on your dial, and he sent you a bill
at the end of the month. Then the owner retired, and they don't do
that any more.

It's the only place in the US I've bought gas at an unattended pump.
At places open to the public, fire regulations seem to require that
there be an attendant who can set off the fire suppression system.

That depends on local fire code, apparently, since I've seen a few.
Considering that the convenience store is where fueling stations really
make their profits, though, unattended operation doesn't seem to make a
lot of sense from their perspective.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On Feb 24, 12:28*pm, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

In the US (and Canada, IIRC), sales tax is not included in the posted
price, so a customer doesn't know how much cash to hand over until the
total is computed by the cash register. *Then, either the customer has
to count out the correct payment or the cashier has to count out the
correct change for a large bill.

Most customers have some idea of the expected total and have a large
bill (eg $20) ready, very few pay by exact amount.

Experienced cashiers can count out change very quickly.

Of course, there are some customers who have to go rummaging through
their wallet or purse for money, but then there are likewise people
who must search out a credit card.


Swiping a card is faster--much faster if the transaction total is under
the merchant's "floor", i.e. doesn't require a signature/PIN.

That really depends on the merchant's verification and charge
machine. _Some_ machines validate very quickly, but often others do
not, even for small amounts. Some credit card validators are
independent of the cash register and they print a receipt slowly.

Returning to trains, NJT's new TVMs are fast, much faster than the old
ones.

On Feb 26, 9:41*am, Roland Perry wrote:

I was under the impression that merchant agreements in the USA did not
allow them to ask for ID. How they resolve flagged transactions, if
that's the case, isn't my problem.

US merchants sometimes ask for separate ID, usually a driver's
license. It appears they do for large transactions or for merchants
who deal with many strangers (eg a tourist area).

I have no idea of what the law or bank policy is on that.

On 2/26/2012 12:30 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 26-Feb-12 13:40, Goalie of the Century wrote:
In , Graeme Wall
writes
Tescos in UK have a facility to "Pay at Pump" You insert your credit
card and enter PIN and then fill up and drive off.

All the Tescos I've seen also have a shop and the option to pay there
instead

That's how most fueling stations in the US work these days: you pay at
the pump as above or go inside and prepay with cash. Some, generally
only in more affluent neighborhoods, allow postpay with cash.

Keep in mind that selling fuel is _not_ very profitable; the oil
companies and distributors gouge merchants for every penny they can get.
Payment at the pump reduces the merchant's labor costs and allows
larger stations with many pumps (some near me have 20+). It also leaves
cashiers free to sell the food, drinks, cigarettes, etc. that account
for most of the merchant's profits.

but I recently came across an ASDA that was entirely unmanned.

I've seen a few of those in the US, but they're rare. See above for the
likely reason.

The pumps had a sign suggesting that Electron card users put in at least
GBP 20 worth or else a larger amount of the balance on the associated
account would remain earmarked for a few days.

Sounds like they're authorizing the card for GBP 20, as discussed
elsewhere in this thread. US pumps authorize for USD 1 in my
experience, but Adam claims it's USD 75 at the pumps he uses; that's
quite a difference.

S



I feel like chiming in here. I worked at at gas station, briefly, the
summer I graduated for high school. This was the summer of 1980. The
company I worked for, USA gasoline, didn't take any sort of plastic.
Only cash.

We were one of the few, even 30 years ago! that didn't make people pay
(or present a valid form of payment) first. This was in Los Angeles
(well, technically, Santa Monica), but the practice of making customers
pay first was pretty common at gas stations here even 30 years ago.

I worked graveyard shift (9 at night to 6 in the morning) most of that
summer. We would have a "run out" at least once a week. That is, someone
who pumped their gas and then took off without paying. The set up of the
station was such that, particularly at certain pumps, a driver could
back out of the station, into the street, without passing the cashier's
booth. Providing there wasn't another car behind them. Needless to say,
this occured mostly in the wee hours, and not so much at say 5:30 in the
afternoon when we typically had lines. We were one of the cheapest
station in the area.

I had a gun pointed at my head one night and quit shortly thereafter,
since I was off to college out of town anyway.

The station, which was later re-branded as Shell, is now a vacant lot.

Sigh!

Regards,

DAve

Stephen Sprunk wrote:

I don't know the exact industry term, but it sure as heck isn't "credit
limit", nor is it stored on the card--period.

I see you've gotten obsessed with this exceedingly minor point, so
the rest is snipped, unread, out of boredom.

Stephen Sprunk wrote:

Note that failure of the consumer to pay their credit card bill does
_not_ result in a chargeback, contrary to Adam's ridiculous claims.

Note that Stephen is flat out misrepresenting my comment about
transactions that didn't receive authorization codes from the
credit card clearinghouse.

Doncha love Usenet?

Roland Perry wrote:
at 18:32:17 on Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

UK credit card statements (including Amex) don't usually have
transaction numbers.

Ok. I bet the transactions are numbered, though.

Internally I expect they are, but the numbers are not revealed to the
cardholder.

What I was disputing was your retailer "two pass model", with the card
itself being authorised up to some "reserved" amount, ahead of the
actual amount being claimed milliseconds later by the retailer.

The card isn't swiped twice.

In a C&P terminal it's not swiped at all. "Inserted" would be a better
verb.

The merchants receives data in two steps.

You'll have to tell us what's in these two [rather than one] steps
(genuine question).

An alphanumeric Authorization Code is received. These are often printed
on receipts, so I know they are 5 numbers and a trailing capital letter.

In the second step, verification of the amount to be charged and the
transaction ID.

Some terminals used by the buyer require a number of steps:

1) Buyer swipes card; this can happen before or after the sale is totalled.

2) The authorization is sent after the card is swiped, which can be
before the final total is known.

3) Buyer is asked to verify amount.

4) Buyer is required to use signature-capture device if total amount
is over the amount set by the merchant to capture a signature. The
buyer is then required to touch the box on the screen to accept the
signature.

5) After buyer enters signature, cashier presses another button
to finalize transaction.

6) Transaction ID for final purchase amount is sent.

Depending on how busy the systems are, there can be noticeable delay
in receiving the authorization code. It helps to speed things up by
swiping the card as early in the transaction as possible.

I don't know why they'd do that, rather than ask for authorisation of
the actual amount first, because in the UK the amount has to be known
before you enter your PIN into the C&P device, as entering your PIN is
an agreement to pay that precise amount.

Uh, always? What do you do at a fuel station which requires a credit
card before dispensing fuel,

That's an exception, because of the way self-service pumps work (they
check the card first, then make the charge later).

or at a restaurant, when the tip amount to be charged is not known
until later,

In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

Sure, some restaurants in the US ask for the tip before swiping the card.
If the waiter takes the credit card, this seems to be uncommon. If the
cashier at the front entrance takes the credit card, they may ask
for the tip amount.

More typical: Bill is presented. Waiter takes credit card, swipes,
obtains authorization. Charge slip is presented to cardholder with a
blank line for the tip. A lot of times, the diner just leaves the slip
on the table and leaves without handing it to the waiter, and the transaction
may be finalized after the diner has left the restaurant.

The two-pass scheme is used in other circumstances, such as checking
into a hotel, when they often "reserve" an estimate of the final bill,
ahead of the day you eventually check out.

Ah. So the amount isn't always known. Do you provide the PIN
at that point, or not?

Yes. They appear to make a small charge (maybe ten dollars) which they
credit later, once the real amount of the "extras" is known the day you
check out.

Interesting.

Mark Goodge wrote:

That's completely different to the UK. Here (assuming we're paying by card,
not cash), the process is:

1. The waiter hands you the bill without a tip line.

2. You insert your card into a handheld CNP terminal.

Very interesting. Thanks for the description.