On 26-Feb-12 10:45, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:27:13 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Like I said before, I had a $300 transaction in the USA which resulted
in the retailer having to make a phone call,

I'm almost certain that's because your bank flagged it as a potentially
fraudulent transaction due to being from a foreign (for you) country,
not due to the amount.

I use credit cards in foreign countries regularly. This was due to it
being an electrical retailer without C&P (which you would not expect in
the USA anyway), and not either the amount or the location.

Did you mean _electronics_ retailer?

If so, as previously noted that industry is known to have high
chargeback rates, regardless of amount or location. Card processors
have established processes for reducing fraud, but perhaps they don't
handle foreign cardholders as smoothly as US cardholders because the
former are rare here or because of legal complications in the event of
fraud.

and subsequently asking me for ID (which I thought wasn't allowed, but
there you are).

I'm not sure whether it's allowed or not, but it's common at merchants
with high chargeback rates. You can always refuse to show ID, but
they're not required to accept the card anyway.

I did think about trying a different card.

It probably wouldn't have helped, unless the transaction was flagged by
the issuing bank rather than the card processor.

And your hypothesis is that stolen/skimmed cards will turn up equally
likely in retail electronics outlets in the good and bad parts of town?

It's not _my_ hypothesis; it's a statistical fact determined by the card
processors.

I'm not sure about "equally likely" either, but retail electronics
merchants even in "good" parts of town have "unacceptable" chargeback
rates and are required to take extra steps that other merchants in those
areas are not required to take. It's possible such merchants in "bad"
parts of town are even worse.

And yet I can routinely buy things (expensive as well as cheap) in the
UK from electrical retailers, without any referral to the card company.

I don't get a "referral" to my bank at US retailers; however, they do
ask for photo ID, match it to the name on the card, closely scrutinize
my signature and compare it to _both_ my credit card and ID, and get an
imprint of the credit card--despite swiping it, which makes an imprint
unnecessary at other merchants.

That's actually what _all_ merchants are supposed to do, in theory, but
card processors let it slide for merchants with acceptable chargeback
rates. And merchants with high chargeback rates want to cooperate,
because high chargeback rates mean high processing fees and, if too
high, will eventually result in their merchant account being closed,
which is a death sentence for most retailers.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 26-Feb-12 13:04, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:51:52 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
There are still two steps: the merchant gets authorization at the time
of purchase and then posts the transaction at some later time,
potentially several days later.

You may not be _aware_ of the second step, but it's there.

It's a plausible theory, but I don't understand why it would be like
that with C&P. The card company is sent all the details in order to
provide authorisation. Why would they need to be sent it again?

I'm not sure. There might be a good legal or financial reason for the
separation, but it might just be a historical artifact left over from
the days of imprints and telephone authorization.

Does an ATM have this "two pass" process as well?

The major ATM card networks (eg. Plus and Cirrus) are owned by the major
payment card networks (eg. Visa and Mastercard), so I doubt they work
_too_ differently.

Also, at least in the US, ATM cards have been mostly supplanted by debit
cards. Some "ATM" cards are really debit cards with a $0 "purchase"
limit. Some banks still issue real ATM cards on request, but many
can't/won't.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 26-Feb-12 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:32:17 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:
What do you do ... at a restaurant, when the tip amount to be charged
is not known until later,

In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

The only* way I've ever seen it in the US is this:

1. The waiter presents an itemized bill _without_ a tip line.
2. You either give him cash (including tip) or a card.
3. The waiter swipes the card in the register, which authorizes the card
for the bill plus an estimated tip.
4. The waiter returns with the card and two slips showing the subtotal,
empty tip line, and empty total line.
5. You fill in the tip and total on the "merchant copy" slip, sign the
slip and hand it back to the waiter. You can leave now. (You should
also fill the tip and total on the "customer copy" slip, for your own
records.)
6. The waiter enters the tip into the register, which updates the credit
card transaction with the correct total for when it's posted later.


(* Aside from "large" parties where a fixed gratuity may be added to the
bill automatically, in which case the transaction proceeds as it does
with normal merchants.)

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 26-Feb-12 12:39, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:49:25 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, John Levine remarked:
In places with chip+pin it's much more common to arrange payments so
they can be done in one transaction. At restaurants, for example,
they typically hand you the card terminal so you can stick your card
in, enter a tip if you want, then your pin, then it says yes or no and
you take your card out.

Exactly. I don't know how a restaurant could do an earlier estimated
reservation of funds, when the only time you give the server your card
is either at the till on the way out, or at the table when he brings the
wireless terminal to you.

That would require a significant change to the way US restaurants work.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, as folks _should_ be more
uncomfortable with a waiter taking their card out of sight, but the
industry will fight it. Don't be surprised if US restaurants remain an
exception to EMV long after other industries are (eventually) forced to
adopt it.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 26-Feb-12 13:40, Goalie of the Century wrote:
In message , Graeme Wall
writes
Tescos in UK have a facility to "Pay at Pump" You insert your credit
card and enter PIN and then fill up and drive off.

All the Tescos I've seen also have a shop and the option to pay there
instead

That's how most fueling stations in the US work these days: you pay at
the pump as above or go inside and prepay with cash. Some, generally
only in more affluent neighborhoods, allow postpay with cash.

Keep in mind that selling fuel is _not_ very profitable; the oil
companies and distributors gouge merchants for every penny they can get.
Payment at the pump reduces the merchant's labor costs and allows
larger stations with many pumps (some near me have 20+). It also leaves
cashiers free to sell the food, drinks, cigarettes, etc. that account
for most of the merchant's profits.

but I recently came across an ASDA that was entirely unmanned.

I've seen a few of those in the US, but they're rare. See above for the
likely reason.

The pumps had a sign suggesting that Electron card users put in at least
GBP 20 worth or else a larger amount of the balance on the associated
account would remain earmarked for a few days.

Sounds like they're authorizing the card for GBP 20, as discussed
elsewhere in this thread. US pumps authorize for USD 1 in my
experience, but Adam claims it's USD 75 at the pumps he uses; that's
quite a difference.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:09:37 -0600, Stephen Sprunk put finger to keyboard
and typed:

On 26-Feb-12 12:52, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:32:17 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:
What do you do ... at a restaurant, when the tip amount to be charged
is not known until later,

In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

The only* way I've ever seen it in the US is this:

1. The waiter presents an itemized bill _without_ a tip line.
2. You either give him cash (including tip) or a card.
3. The waiter swipes the card in the register, which authorizes the card
for the bill plus an estimated tip.
4. The waiter returns with the card and two slips showing the subtotal,
empty tip line, and empty total line.
5. You fill in the tip and total on the "merchant copy" slip, sign the
slip and hand it back to the waiter. You can leave now. (You should
also fill the tip and total on the "customer copy" slip, for your own
records.)
6. The waiter enters the tip into the register, which updates the credit
card transaction with the correct total for when it's posted later.

That's completely different to the UK. Here (assuming we're paying by card,
not cash), the process is:

1. The waiter hands you the bill without a tip line.

2. You insert your card into a handheld CNP terminal. (Depending on the
restaurant, the terminal will either be brought to your table - they are
wireless - or you will go to a payment station with your card. Obviously,
the more upmarket the restaurant the more likely it is that they'll bring
the terminal to you - going to a payment station is more likely in the
likes of Pizza Hut).

3. The waiter rings up the total excluding a tip, then hands you the
terminal.

4. The terminal now gives you two options: Pay the amount as stated, or add
an additional sum.

5. If you choose to add a tip, you enter the amount into the terminal
yourself. The terminal then displays a new total.

6. Once you are happy with the amount you are paying, you press the
"confirm" button.

7. The terminal then prompts you for your PIN.

8. You enter the PIN, wait a few moments while the transaction is
authorised and then the terminal prints a receipt[1]. The receipt includes
the amount of the tip.

You only enter your PIN once, after the final amount (including tip) has
been calculated. And there is only one payment receipt.

[1] Or, of course, declines your card or rejects the PIN. In which case,
you'd better have an alternative method of paymenht :-)

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk

In message , at 13:33:17 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
If the charge isn't paid, the merchant isn't paid.

Wrong. If the charge is accepted by the issuing bank, the merchant gets
paid by their processor, period.

What if there's a later chargeback?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 13:59:20 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Also, at least in the US, ATM cards have been mostly supplanted by debit
cards. Some "ATM" cards are really debit cards with a $0 "purchase"
limit. Some banks still issue real ATM cards on request, but many
can't/won't.

Cards that only work in ATMs are almost unknown in the UK. They are
usually general purpose debit cards too (and you can get cash advances
on credit cards).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 14:09:37 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

The only* way I've ever seen it in the US is this:

1. The waiter presents an itemized bill _without_ a tip line.
2. You either give him cash (including tip) or a card.
3. The waiter swipes the card in the register, which authorizes the card
for the bill plus an estimated tip.
4. The waiter returns with the card and two slips showing the subtotal,
empty tip line, and empty total line.
5. You fill in the tip and total on the "merchant copy" slip, sign the
slip and hand it back to the waiter. You can leave now. (You should
also fill the tip and total on the "customer copy" slip, for your own
records.)
6. The waiter enters the tip into the register, which updates the credit
card transaction with the correct total for when it's posted later.

That just shows things are indeed different in different countries.

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 13:50:33 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
I use credit cards in foreign countries regularly. This was due to it
being an electrical retailer without C&P (which you would not expect in
the USA anyway), and not either the amount or the location.

Did you mean _electronics_ retailer?

No really. They sold fridges and washing machines too. Which are hardly
"electronics".

I did think about trying a different card.

It probably wouldn't have helped, unless the transaction was flagged by
the issuing bank rather than the card processor.

It must be flagged by the bank, because banks are the people you are
supposed to tell when you go abroad. I doubt they in turn pre-emptively
inform every card processor in the part of the world you are travelling
to.

And yet I can routinely buy things (expensive as well as cheap) in the
UK from electrical retailers, without any referral to the card company.

I don't get a "referral" to my bank at US retailers; however, they do
ask for photo ID, match it to the name on the card, closely scrutinize
my signature and compare it to _both_ my credit card and ID, and get an
imprint of the credit card--despite swiping it, which makes an imprint
unnecessary at other merchants.

It would be a "referral" if they were instructed to do that by the card
company on a transaction by transaction basis. Would they really do all
that if you were buying was a $5 pack of AA batteries?

--
Roland Perry