Oh dear. Another disaster. What the hell is wrong with this line and the
trains that run on it? I hope TfL is getting compensation from the
manufacturers for these endless cockups.

B2003

In message of Thu, 24 May 2012 08:42:03
in uk.transport.london, d writes
Oh dear. Another disaster. What the hell is wrong with this line and the
trains that run on it? I hope TfL is getting compensation from the
manufacturers for these endless cockups.

I infer Boltar is referring to the incident reported in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18185001
where it says:

23 May 2012 Last updated at 22:56

Tube passengers led down Jubilee Line after train fault

Hundreds of Tube passengers have been led down a tunnel on the Jubilee
Line after a train broke down near St John's Wood, in north-west London.

The train stopped at about 17:35 GMT causing severe rush-hour delays on
the line.

On Twitter, one passenger commented: "700 people being evacuated down
track. Epic Jubilee Line fail."

Transport for London has apologised and said: "We will be refunding
those affected."

Nigel Holness, London Underground Operations Director, said: "I
apologise to customers whose journeys have been disrupted by this
evening's problems on the Jubilee line.

"This was caused by a faulty train between Baker Street and St Johns
Wood which has led to the suspension of the line between London Bridge
and Finchley Road.

"This is clearly not the level of service they have a right to expect."
--
Walter Briscoe

On Thu, 24 May 2012 10:43:05 +0100
Walter Briscoe wrote:
I infer Boltar is referring to the incident reported in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18185001

Thats the one.

Tube passengers led down Jubilee Line after train fault

Any train that runs underground and can completely break down and not
be moved at all has (short of it being the brakes locked on) a design fault.

"This is clearly not the level of service they have a right to expect."

There's a man with his finger on the pulse.

B2003

On May 24, 11:24*am, wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2012 10:43:05 +0100

Walter Briscoe wrote:
I infer Boltar is referring to the incident reported in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18185001

Thats the one.

Tube passengers led down Jubilee Line after train fault

Any train that runs underground and can completely break down and not
be moved at all has (short of it being the brakes locked on) a design fault.

"This is clearly not the level of service they have a right to expect."

There's a man with his finger on the pulse.

B2003

According to the latest from the BBC they were on the train for fours
hours. Just how long does it take for someone to decide that a train
cannot be moved? And why can't the emergency services overrule TFL,
demand, or order the the power turned off under threat of arrest of
individual staff, and extract the passengers vian the tunnel, after
say, a maximum of 30 minutes? If someone had died, everyone from 'the
man with his finger on the pulse' up to Boris would have been feeling
the heat today

Neill

On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:04:55 -0700 (PDT)
neill wrote:
According to the latest from the BBC they were on the train for fours
hours. Just how long does it take for someone to decide that a train
cannot be moved? And why can't the emergency services overrule TFL,

**** knows. Probably the usual mix of public sector incompentance and no one
wanting to take any decisions or responsibility but instead just passing the
problem up to the next level of management who have even less an idea of
whats actually happening than the previous level.

demand, or order the the power turned off under threat of arrest of
individual staff, and extract the passengers vian the tunnel, after
say, a maximum of 30 minutes? If someone had died, everyone from 'the
man with his finger on the pulse' up to Boris would have been feeling
the heat today

There'd be a lot of insincere hang wringing, endless trite "lessons will be
learnt" media statements from talking heads and after a year it would be
forgotten about and everything would carry on as before until the next time.

B2003

neill wrote on 24 May 2012 15:04:55 ...
On May 24, 11:24 am, wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2012 10:43:05 +0100

Walter wrote:
I infer Boltar is referring to the incident reported in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18185001

Thats the one.

Tube passengers led down Jubilee Line after train fault

Any train that runs underground and can completely break down and not
be moved at all has (short of it being the brakes locked on) a design fault.

"This is clearly not the level of service they have a right to expect."

There's a man with his finger on the pulse.

B2003

According to the latest from the BBC they were on the train for fours
hours. Just how long does it take for someone to decide that a train
cannot be moved? And why can't the emergency services overrule TFL,
demand, or order the the power turned off under threat of arrest of
individual staff, and extract the passengers vian the tunnel, after
say, a maximum of 30 minutes? If someone had died, everyone from 'the
man with his finger on the pulse' up to Boris would have been feeling
the heat today

According to the Evening Standard, the first passenger was evacuated
after 1½ hours, the last passenger after 3½ hours. So that's 2 hours to
evacuate 773 passengers. One passenger per 9 seconds - not good enough.

The ES also reports that "after the failure between Baker Street and St
John’s Wood just after 5.30pm, a rescue train was sent in to push the
stranded one to the next station. But that ground to a halt because the
first one was on an uphill gradient and was too heavy. Distressed
passengers were then told to walk on tracks to safety." Other reports
say that the push-out failed "partly" because of the gradient. Perhaps
the brakes were locked on.

I hope the RAIB get stuck into this, as they did with the Kentish Town
incident last year on FCC, where it took just under 3 hours to release
passengers from a packed Thameslink train which broke down.

The fact that the Jubilee train problem had never been seen before is
irrelevant. What matters is whether LU have a proper procedure for
evacuating passengers quickly and keeping them informed meanwhile. The
evidence so far from this incident is that they still don't.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On Thu, 24 May 2012 19:28:25 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Thu, 24 May 2012 08:42:03 +0000 (UTC), d
wrote:

Oh dear. Another disaster. What the hell is wrong with this line and the
trains that run on it? I hope TfL is getting compensation from the
manufacturers for these endless cockups.

On the BBC evening news there was a comment from Peter Hendy who said
the fault with the "sat down" train had never occurred since the
trains entered service. The back up facility apparently did not work
and when the "push out" train attached to it the fault then propegated
to the "pusher".

Goodness knows what did go wrong but I would expect a very thorough
engineering review and then a full fleet check to see if any other
trains are susceptible and also to make sure the back up facility is
fully working on every train. I would also expect there to be an
investigation as to how a train got into a state where the back up was
not functional and the changes to procedures (if required).

It does seem odd that apparently new faults are appearing in a mature
fleet that should be in the optimum part of the reliability bathtub
curve.

On Thu, 24 May 2012 21:13:10 +0100
"Richard J." wrote:
stranded one to the next station. But that ground to a halt because the
first one was on an uphill gradient and was too heavy. Distressed

Hmm, I don't believe that because that would mean if the motors in one half
of a train failed or had to be shut off in normal service the train wouldn't
be able to make it up that gradient.

I hope the RAIB get stuck into this, as they did with the Kentish Town
incident last year on FCC, where it took just under 3 hours to release
passengers from a packed Thameslink train which broke down.

The amount of money paid to railway workers seems increasingly to be in
inverse proportion to their competance.

B2003

On 5/24/2012 4:13 PM, Richard J. wrote:
neill wrote on 24 May 2012 15:04:55 ...
On May 24, 11:24 am, wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2012 10:43:05 +0100

Walter wrote:
I infer Boltar is referring to the incident reported in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18185001

Thats the one.

Tube passengers led down Jubilee Line after train fault

Any train that runs underground and can completely break down and not
be moved at all has (short of it being the brakes locked on) a design
fault.

"This is clearly not the level of service they have a right to expect."

There's a man with his finger on the pulse.

B2003

According to the latest from the BBC they were on the train for fours
hours. Just how long does it take for someone to decide that a train
cannot be moved? And why can't the emergency services overrule TFL,
demand, or order the the power turned off under threat of arrest of
individual staff, and extract the passengers vian the tunnel, after
say, a maximum of 30 minutes? If someone had died, everyone from 'the
man with his finger on the pulse' up to Boris would have been feeling
the heat today

According to the Evening Standard, the first passenger was evacuated
after 1½ hours, the last passenger after 3½ hours. So that's 2 hours to
evacuate 773 passengers. One passenger per 9 seconds - not good enough.

The ES also reports that "after the failure between Baker Street and St
John’s Wood just after 5.30pm, a rescue train was sent in to push the
stranded one to the next station. But that ground to a halt because the
first one was on an uphill gradient and was too heavy. Distressed
passengers were then told to walk on tracks to safety." Other reports
say that the push-out failed "partly" because of the gradient. Perhaps
the brakes were locked on.

I hope the RAIB get stuck into this, as they did with the Kentish Town
incident last year on FCC, where it took just under 3 hours to release
passengers from a packed Thameslink train which broke down.

The fact that the Jubilee train problem had never been seen before is
irrelevant. What matters is whether LU have a proper procedure for
evacuating passengers quickly and keeping them informed meanwhile. The
evidence so far from this incident is that they still don't.

Wasn't it the Jubilee line where people were stuck waiting to get to the
Millennium Dome? I mean, this is going back 13 years so I don't remember
the whole story. But definitely there was an event like this.

rc

On Tue, 29 May 2012 15:49:47 -0400, redcat
wrote:

On 5/24/2012 4:13 PM, Richard J. wrote:
neill wrote on 24 May 2012 15:04:55 ...
On May 24, 11:24 am, wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2012 10:43:05 +0100

Walter wrote:
I infer Boltar is referring to the incident reported in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18185001

Thats the one.

Tube passengers led down Jubilee Line after train fault

Any train that runs underground and can completely break down and not
be moved at all has (short of it being the brakes locked on) a design
fault.

"This is clearly not the level of service they have a right to expect."

There's a man with his finger on the pulse.

B2003

According to the latest from the BBC they were on the train for fours
hours. Just how long does it take for someone to decide that a train
cannot be moved? And why can't the emergency services overrule TFL,
demand, or order the the power turned off under threat of arrest of
individual staff, and extract the passengers vian the tunnel, after
say, a maximum of 30 minutes? If someone had died, everyone from 'the
man with his finger on the pulse' up to Boris would have been feeling
the heat today

According to the Evening Standard, the first passenger was evacuated
after 1½ hours, the last passenger after 3½ hours. So that's 2 hours to
evacuate 773 passengers. One passenger per 9 seconds - not good enough.

The ES also reports that "after the failure between Baker Street and St
John’s Wood just after 5.30pm, a rescue train was sent in to push the
stranded one to the next station. But that ground to a halt because the
first one was on an uphill gradient and was too heavy. Distressed
passengers were then told to walk on tracks to safety." Other reports
say that the push-out failed "partly" because of the gradient. Perhaps
the brakes were locked on.

I hope the RAIB get stuck into this, as they did with the Kentish Town
incident last year on FCC, where it took just under 3 hours to release
passengers from a packed Thameslink train which broke down.

The fact that the Jubilee train problem had never been seen before is
irrelevant. What matters is whether LU have a proper procedure for
evacuating passengers quickly and keeping them informed meanwhile. The
evidence so far from this incident is that they still don't.

Wasn't it the Jubilee line where people were stuck waiting to get to the
Millennium Dome? I mean, this is going back 13 years so I don't remember
the whole story. But definitely there was an event like this.

I thought that they were stuck at Security, not on the train.