On 18/09/2012 10:44, Graham Harrison wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 16/09/2012 23:56, Neil Williams wrote:
Ken Wheatley wrote:

I remember when many London buses had a ticket machine inside the
right-hand leaf of the entrance door, so those with the right money
could
bypass the queue for the driver. The really slow ones were the worst at
having a go at 'queue jumpers".

It would to me make sense to have an Oyster pad there. Hamburg is
slightly
similar - driver side leaf for paying cash, other side for getting past
while people pay cash (you don't have to show your ticket). It is
extremely efficient, and as London has disabled access at the rear
door the
centre rail could be reinstated to help "marshall" it.

Neil


I have wondered if they would install automatic fare counters on
busses, rather than having the driver count them.

A passenger would simply the deposit coins into a chute, after which a
ticket would be issued.

The counter would be mounted on the interior of the driver's door and
the receptacle would be where passengers now place their coins when
paying for a single fare.

Exact fare only -- no change, no banknotes. Just think of how much
extra revenue would come in from people overpaying their fares.

Or would it just be too much cost in time, labour and maintenance when
so few people pay for single fares?

Ahh, the American model!

The American model in what sense, by having a farebox? They already have
similar things here in the UK, though not in London.

" wrote:

The American model in what sense, by having a farebox? They already have
similar things here in the UK, though not in London.

The US ones are more like vending machines in that the machine, not the
driver, counts the money.

Whatever they are, they are incredibly passenger unfriendly.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

On 18/09/2012 21:37, Neil Williams wrote:
" wrote:

The American model in what sense, by having a farebox? They already have
similar things here in the UK, though not in London.

The US ones are more like vending machines in that the machine, not the
driver, counts the money.

Whatever they are, they are incredibly passenger unfriendly.

Neil

How exactly are they unfriendly?

wrote in message
...
On 18/09/2012 10:44, Graham Harrison wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 16/09/2012 23:56, Neil Williams wrote:
Ken Wheatley wrote:

I remember when many London buses had a ticket machine inside the
right-hand leaf of the entrance door, so those with the right money
could
bypass the queue for the driver. The really slow ones were the worst
at
having a go at 'queue jumpers".

It would to me make sense to have an Oyster pad there. Hamburg is
slightly
similar - driver side leaf for paying cash, other side for getting past
while people pay cash (you don't have to show your ticket). It is
extremely efficient, and as London has disabled access at the rear
door the
centre rail could be reinstated to help "marshall" it.

Neil


I have wondered if they would install automatic fare counters on
busses, rather than having the driver count them.

A passenger would simply the deposit coins into a chute, after which a
ticket would be issued.

The counter would be mounted on the interior of the driver's door and
the receptacle would be where passengers now place their coins when
paying for a single fare.

Exact fare only -- no change, no banknotes. Just think of how much
extra revenue would come in from people overpaying their fares.

Or would it just be too much cost in time, labour and maintenance when
so few people pay for single fares?

Ahh, the American model!

The American model in what sense, by having a farebox? They already have
similar things here in the UK, though not in London.

When I first visited San Francisco their PCCs had a glass box on a metal
stand. You put your money in a slot at the top of the glass box so the
driver could see what you'd paid and if it was correct (or more) he pushed a
lever which opened the base of the glass box and allowed the cash to drop
into the metal stand. Later they replaced the glass box with a coin
sorter; you still put your money in the slot at the top, the sorter made a
few clinking noises and if it was the right amount a little bell sounded.
It worked because they had a flat fare system (not even any zones). I
subsequently came across the same system in other American cities. Just as
you described, coin sorter (no note accepter) and if you overpaid, tough.
This was the very early 70s.

I was intrigued by a system I came across several times in Japan a couple of
years ago. You board the bus at the rear and take a ticket which has a
number on it representing where you boarded. At the front of the bus was
an electronic indicator which showed all the boarding point numbers and the
current fare from each boarding point. In the case where I came across it
I had bought my ticket in a vending machine at the start of the route so I
simply gave the driver that ticket and he was quite happy and I took no real
notice of how the fare was collected but the system of the number and fare
indicator intrigued me (I'm NOT suggesting we adopt it).

In article , () wrote:

On 18/09/2012 21:37, Neil Williams wrote:
" wrote:

The American model in what sense, by having a farebox? They already
have similar things here in the UK, though not in London.

The US ones are more like vending machines in that the machine, not the
driver, counts the money.

Whatever they are, they are incredibly passenger unfriendly.

How exactly are they unfriendly?

No change given? The ones tried in London had that weakness.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 18/09/2012 23:23, Graham Harrison wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 18/09/2012 10:44, Graham Harrison wrote:

wrote in message
...
On 16/09/2012 23:56, Neil Williams wrote:
Ken Wheatley wrote:

I remember when many London buses had a ticket machine inside the
right-hand leaf of the entrance door, so those with the right money
could
bypass the queue for the driver. The really slow ones were the
worst at
having a go at 'queue jumpers".

It would to me make sense to have an Oyster pad there. Hamburg is
slightly
similar - driver side leaf for paying cash, other side for getting
past
while people pay cash (you don't have to show your ticket). It is
extremely efficient, and as London has disabled access at the rear
door the
centre rail could be reinstated to help "marshall" it.

Neil


I have wondered if they would install automatic fare counters on
busses, rather than having the driver count them.

A passenger would simply the deposit coins into a chute, after which a
ticket would be issued.

The counter would be mounted on the interior of the driver's door and
the receptacle would be where passengers now place their coins when
paying for a single fare.

Exact fare only -- no change, no banknotes. Just think of how much
extra revenue would come in from people overpaying their fares.

Or would it just be too much cost in time, labour and maintenance when
so few people pay for single fares?

Ahh, the American model!

The American model in what sense, by having a farebox? They already
have similar things here in the UK, though not in London.

When I first visited San Francisco their PCCs had a glass box on a metal
stand. You put your money in a slot at the top of the glass box so the
driver could see what you'd paid and if it was correct (or more) he
pushed a lever which opened the base of the glass box and allowed the
cash to drop into the metal stand. Later they replaced the glass box
with a coin sorter; you still put your money in the slot at the top, the
sorter made a few clinking noises and if it was the right amount a
little bell sounded. It worked because they had a flat fare system (not
even any zones). I subsequently came across the same system in other
American cities. Just as you described, coin sorter (no note accepter)
and if you overpaid, tough. This was the very early 70s.

Would there be any real difficulty in having that here in London? Or is
it that such equipment would be costly in terms of time and labour,
considering that the vast majority of fares paid in London are on Oyster?

I was intrigued by a system I came across several times in Japan a
couple of years ago. You board the bus at the rear and take a ticket
which has a number on it representing where you boarded. At the front
of the bus was an electronic indicator which showed all the boarding
point numbers and the current fare from each boarding point. In the
case where I came across it I had bought my ticket in a vending machine
at the start of the route so I simply gave the driver that ticket and he
was quite happy and I took no real notice of how the fare was collected
but the system of the number and fare indicator intrigued me (I'm NOT
suggesting we adopt it).

Reminds me of Strippenkaart in the Netherlands; I've never been able to
fully figure it out.

" wrote:

Would there be any real difficulty in having that here in London? Or is
it that such equipment would be costly in terms of time and labour,
considering that the vast majority of fares paid in London are on Oyster?

It's not cheap equipment wise but probably no more expensive than those
roadside machines. Edinburgh and Nottingham have fare boxes, though they
are of the driver verified type, and they can at least cope with notes and
paying for more than one ticket at once as a result.

Reminds me of Strippenkaart in the Netherlands; I've never been able to
fully figure it out.

It's simple. You stamp one strip plus one extra for each zone your journey
uses. On a bus, you either state your destination, or if you happen to
know it the number of zones you want, not a lot different to stating your
destination or fare on a bus. The driver then stamps it. On a tram or
similar there is usually a zone map (unlike, say, Milan, where this seems
to be classified information despite you needing to specify zones on the
ticket machines).

So in London for a journey from zone 1 to 6 you would stamp 7 strips.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

" wrote:

How exactly are they unfriendly?

Change is not given, and notes are not accepted. This results in people
having to amass quarters and having to overpay.

Better to get most of the ticketing off the bus so the full service of
assistance and change giving can be offered to the few remaining cash
payers, as it's normally through either necessity or through being a
clueless tourist, or simply no alternative outlets nearby being open.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

In message , at 08:30:30 on Tue, 18 Sep
2012, Roland Perry remarked:
The first question Tesco ask you is "Have you brought your own bag",

It's on the same initial screen as "Press to start scanning" (or
whatever the exact words are).

at which point you can put it on the bagging area and it
re-calibrates the weighing scales.

The machines at my local Sainsbury's don't seem to get on with rucksacks
whenever I've tried that. They can cope with normal cloth shopping bags
of the sort I seem to acquire at conferences.

Perhaps because a rucksack might not properly distribute the weight
when placed on the sensor, whereas it's easier with a cloth shopping
bag?

It's possible it's an anti-theft measure, to make sure you don't put
your own bag on the scales with some [un-paid for] items *already* in
it. I might try that next time I'm in Tesco (go in with my own bag but
also a brick or some other item I could not have bought in the store).

So I took two (empty) hessian "green" bags, and this was too heavy for
the scales, and an assistant was summoned.

I was also overcharged when an "any two for £3" offer wasn't triggered.
After much puffing and blowing (and two visits to the display shelves by
the customer service rep) I eventually got a refund of 2x the
difference. Once upon a time I think they gave you that, plus the
product for free.
--
Roland Perry

In message , Roland Perry
writes
The first question Tesco ask you is "Have you brought your own bag", at
which point you can put it on the bagging area and it re-calibrates the
weighing scales.
Not in my neck of the woods. It says have you brought your own bags,
press yes, put them in the bagging area and it immediately says unknown
item in bagging area.
--
Clive