On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:49:45 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:26:15 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, d remarked:
If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the

contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.



So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and contactless

bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend

software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

No doubt the (sub)contractor hired a load of know-nothing offshored
bodyshoppers to do the donkey work and got exactly what they paid so little
for.

--
Spud

On 17/09/2014 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 13:59:27 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the
gates and the and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

I said it LOOKS as if it OUGHT to be simple sigh, but clearly it isn't.

That's not the same as saying IT IS SIMPLE and that they've botched it.

Right, I'll rephrase then...

You think it looks like it ought to be simple. OK, if you say so...

In message , at 16:13:19 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the
gates and the and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

I said it LOOKS as if it OUGHT to be simple sigh, but clearly it isn't.

That's not the same as saying IT IS SIMPLE and that they've botched it.

Right, I'll rephrase then...

You think it looks like it ought to be simple. OK, if you say so...

If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my
bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate
ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me
overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a
lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in
place.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:36:50 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my
bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate
ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me
overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a
lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in
place.

I wonder how they (or the bank) deals with a card that accesses an account
with nothing in it and no overdraft allowed. Does the bank have some sort
of "special" overdraft for that or do they just refuse payment and the
vendor is out of pocket as can happen with credit cards?

--
Spud

On 17.09.14 16:36, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:13:19 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the
gates and the and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a
year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

I said it LOOKS as if it OUGHT to be simple sigh, but clearly it
isn't.

That's not the same as saying IT IS SIMPLE and that they've botched it.

Right, I'll rephrase then...

You think it looks like it ought to be simple. OK, if you say so...

If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my
bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate
ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me
overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a
lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in place.

@TfLOfficial said that over 42,000 journeys were made on Tuesday, using
contactless. It would be interesting to see how that has increased
day-on-day.

I also who wonder who is next due to follow suit here in the Uk with
contactless.

In message , at 16:15:19 on Wed, 17
Sep 2014, d remarked:

If I can by a coffee at Starbucks by waving a CPC, and it ends up on my

bill at the end of the month, it does seem as if waving a CPC at a gate

ought to register my presence with enough information to bill me

overnight once I've also registered a touch-out. But clearly it's all a

lot more complicated than that, given the kerfuffle to get it all in

place.



I wonder how they (or the bank) deals with a card that accesses an account

with nothing in it and no overdraft allowed.

Quite likely, simply not issue a contactless version of the card. So we
are back to the Solo/Electron ghetto of yore.

Neither of the last two cards I've got (one a debit card on the company
account and the other a "travel money" prepaid Mastercard) is
contactless.

This is especially difficult as many (USA at least) tourists arriving in
London will have bought one of the latter at the airport (where they are
marketed aggressively) in order to get over the C&P thing where their
cards may not be compatible, and of course in order to have their money
in their pocket in Sterling.

Does the bank have some sort

of "special" overdraft for that or do they just refuse payment and the

vendor is out of pocket as can happen with credit cards?


On the other hand, TfL has gone out of its way in the past to say that
certain foreign issued and prepay cards won't be accepted. But it's not
clear if they mean "because they aren't contactless - duh!" or whether
they fail TfL's risk management tests due to the possibility of being
dry.

Now that CPC is fully rolled out, I expect we'll see more information
about both TfL's position on this issue and also war stories from
disappointed would-be travellers.

One possibility is that while they won't be able to get a balance from
the bank in the milliseconds it takes to touch in, maybe by at least
overnight they'll know to blacklist such a card's future use.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 17:28:35 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, " remarked:

I also who wonder who is next due to follow suit here in the Uk with
contactless.

No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories
from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the
last three years.

VISA say:

"Transport authorities across the world are investing in
contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of
ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."
and
"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build
Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing
strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the
propositions they represent."

But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of
uncaptioned photos from TfL.
--
Roland Perry

On 17/09/2014 17:44, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 17:28:35 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, " remarked:

I also who wonder who is next due to follow suit here in the Uk with
contactless.

No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories
from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the
last three years.

VISA say:

"Transport authorities across the world are investing in
contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of
ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."
and
"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build
Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing
strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the
propositions they represent."

But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of
uncaptioned photos from TfL.


This vapourware concept you're so very keen on and contactless in London
- how do you describe it - the gases have now solidified?

"Roland Perry" wrote

No doubt the trade press is queuing up to print 'vapourware' stories
from other operators. After all, they've been doing it for TfL for the
last three years.

VISA say:

"Transport authorities across the world are investing in
contactless payment technology to drive down the cost of
ticketing, reduce queues and increase efficiency."
and
"Many transit agencies across Europe are now seeking to build
Visa contactless acceptance into their future ticketing
strategies due to the uniquely compelling nature of the
propositions they represent."

But don't actually mention any examples of who, other than a couple of
uncaptioned photos from TfL.

The first is observable, at least when the technology goes live or even when
the contact is signed.

The second is just an aspiration and not observable until something
actually happens.

--
Mike D

contactless.



This is especially difficult as many (USA at least) tourists arriving in

London will have bought one of the latter at the airport (where they are

marketed aggressively) in order to get over the C&P thing where their

cards may not be compatible, and of course in order to have their money

in their pocket in Sterling.



Does the bank have some sort



of "special" overdraft for that or do they just refuse payment and the



vendor is out of pocket as can happen with credit cards?





On the other hand, TfL has gone out of its way in the past to say that

certain foreign issued and prepay cards won't be accepted. But it's not

clear if they mean "because they aren't contactless - duh!" or whether

they fail TfL's risk management tests due to the possibility of being

dry.



Now that CPC is fully rolled out, I expect we'll see more information

about both TfL's position on this issue and also war stories from

disappointed would-be travellers.



One possibility is that while they won't be able to get a balance from

the bank in the milliseconds it takes to touch in, maybe by at least

overnight they'll know to blacklist such a card's future use.

--

Roland Perry

There are two different types of contactless cards around:

i) just emulates the magnetic strip

ii) is connected to the EMV chip.

It's the first (mostly USA issued) which won't be accepted.