In article , (Mizter T) wrote:

On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat
more pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

What idiots use contactless debut cards anyway with all the inherent
security risks? There's a reason for PINs. As soon as my bank sent me
one of these damn things I disabled it straight away by cutting through
the antenna which also has the added bonus that I can have it in my
wallet with my oyster and not have to worry at the gate.

It won't happen overnight, but I'm in little doubt that contactless
payments for public transport in London will prove to be a great
success (and will drive the adoption and usage of contactless to an
extent).

They will be a big improvement for tube and bus travellers from outside
London who won't have to buy Oyster cards to use on their visits if they
don't was to be ripped off paying cash fares.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 2014-09-16, d
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:39:24 +0100
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat
more pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

"The roll-out has cost a total of ?66m, and TfL expects to more than
recover the ?11m cost of software development by licensing it to other
transport operators around the world." according to
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...w/contactless-
payment-arrives-in-london.html

Yeah, right - because its their technology developed in house. Not. The most
technical thing TfL can manage without outside help is a bit of train and
track maintenance.

If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the
contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.

Eric
--
ms fnd in a lbry

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:23:04 +0100
Eric wrote:
On 2014-09-16, d
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:39:24 +0100
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat
more pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

"The roll-out has cost a total of ?66m, and TfL expects to more than
recover the ?11m cost of software development by licensing it to other
transport operators around the world." according to
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...w/contactless-
payment-arrives-in-london.html

Yeah, right - because its their technology developed in house. Not. The most
technical thing TfL can manage without outside help is a bit of train and
track maintenance.

If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the
contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.

So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and contactless
bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend
software? They're probably little use other than the overall design to any other
metro system. TfL pretending its going to license this is like McDonalds saying
their going to license burger flipping.

--
Spud

In message , at 10:26:15 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, d remarked:
If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the

contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.



So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and contactless

bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend

software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.
--
Roland Perry

On 17/09/2014 11:26, d wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:23:04 +0100
Eric wrote:
On 2014-09-16, d
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 19:39:24 +0100
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 16/09/2014 12:37, d wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:27:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
Starts today, and featured on BBC TV local news.

I'd be interested to know how much all this cost when there are somewhat
more pressing issues to sort out on the tube.

"The roll-out has cost a total of ?66m, and TfL expects to more than
recover the ?11m cost of software development by licensing it to other
transport operators around the world." according to
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...w/contactless-
payment-arrives-in-london.html

Yeah, right - because its their technology developed in house. Not. The most
technical thing TfL can manage without outside help is a bit of train and
track maintenance.

If companies didn't contract stuff out, where would you be? And if the
contract isn't clear about ownership of what you create they are crazy.

So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and contactless
bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend
software? They're probably little use other than the overall design to any other
metro system. TfL pretending its going to license this is like McDonalds saying
their going to license burger flipping.

The systems and solutions for daily/weekly capping, fraud detection and
amelioration, reconciliation of data related to gripping, dealing with
comms loss, data reporting and mining etc etc.

Taking your McDonalds analogy, it's more like them licensing their
logistics, stock tracking and market development data - something that
I'm sure their competitors would be very interested in licensing at the
right price.

In message , at 12:55:07 on
Wed, 17 Sep 2014, Paul Corfield remarked:
Based on anecdotal feedback it seems the card / reader txn time for
CPCs is marginally longer and if there is significant transfer to CPCs
that could slow down gate throughput. If the subsequent conversion of
Oyster is also slower than current Oyster then that's not going to be
wonderful.

Southern and the DfT have been launching the "Travelcard on ITSO"
functionality for the Southern "The Key" today. I saw something on
Twitter but no press releases were around earlier.

I hadn't noticed that, thanks. Apparently it went operational (some
would call that a 'soft-launch') about three weeks ago.

Apparently ITSO card read times are not quick either

Even slower than CPC I'm pretty sure. Not that this matters on much of
National Rail with really slow 'clockwork' barriers.

so we face the prospect of gate throughputs falling.

Indeed, although if they started to mark some gates as "Oyster only"
(even if it's a bluff) that might keep the throughput up for people in
the know.

This is in the face of rising patronage and slow
gate throughput means you need more gates for a given throughput which
could have serious implications, if TfL change their standards, for
reconstructing stations.

Another option would be to redefine the ITSO use paradigm, and make it
more like CPC with a "read only" and hence shorter transaction time at
selected gates with selected products (such as TfL/Travelcards), with
the results being reconciled overnight (like CPC) with some sort of
centralised auto-topup purse.

There are a lot of "ifs" there but I hope
someone is paying attention to the effect of changing the blend of
card technologies and read times.

On the other hand it may just be another instance of Hutber's Law, with
a so-called improvement actually giving worse/slower service to the end
user.

Who would have predicted when they decided to phase out slam-door trains
that one of the results would that instead of being able to exit the
train from about minus-two seconds before it stops, you always have to
wait until about fifteen seconds afterwards. Manual ticket buying has
only got difficult since the industry changed from issuing Edmondsons
for cash (about 5 seconds all-up) to the current offering which have to
be picked from a crt, take ages to print, and even longer to pay for by
credit card.
--
Roland Perry

On 17/09/2014 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
[...]
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the
and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

In message , at 13:59:27 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Mizter T remarked:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the
and the backend software?

They own whatever middleware and other technology has taken over a year
more than even the most recent estimate to get running. It looks as if
it *ought* to be simple, but clearly it's not.

You think it's simple. OK, if you say so.

I said it LOOKS as if it OUGHT to be simple sigh, but clearly it
isn't.

That's not the same as saying IT IS SIMPLE and that they've botched it.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 13:16:01 on Wed, 17 Sep
2014, Roland Perry remarked:
Southern and the DfT have been launching the "Travelcard on ITSO"
functionality for the Southern "The Key" today. I saw something on
Twitter but no press releases were around earlier.

I hadn't noticed that, thanks. Apparently it went operational (some
would call that a 'soft-launch') about three weeks ago.

A little bit more than a soft launch perhaps:

http://www.epsomguardian.co.uk/news/...ies_problems_w
ith_electronic_travel_card_at_Epsom_station/

"The Key was being promoted at Epsom station last Thursday (in August)"

Meanwhile, I haven't seen today's launch on any of the news sites.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:54:28 +0100
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 17/09/2014 11:26, d wrote:
So TfL owns the right to the MiFare system, smart card readers and
contactless
bank cards does it? Umm , no. So what is left - the gates and the backend
software? They're probably little use other than the overall design to any
other
metro system. TfL pretending its going to license this is like McDonalds
saying
their going to license burger flipping.

The systems and solutions for daily/weekly capping, fraud detection and
amelioration, reconciliation of data related to gripping, dealing with
comms loss, data reporting and mining etc etc.

This isn't exactly cutting edge tech. While any system can be complex in
its details and implementation they are usually specific to the organisation
and arn't really transferable. Also the fundemantal principals - which might
be worth something - are rarely new.

Taking your McDonalds analogy, it's more like them licensing their
logistics, stock tracking and market development data - something that
I'm sure their competitors would be very interested in licensing at the
right price.

All their competitors would already have their own systems up and running
else they wouldn't still be in business.

--
Spud