On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:48:01 +0000 (UTC),
d wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 05:35:32 -0500
wrote:
In article , d
() wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:36:52 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Given the tight curves and so on of the DLR system it might actually be
quite difficult to detect something at or exceeding your stopping
distance which is obstructing the tracks or even harder the bits
between or at the side of the tracks.

Presumably the only places you'd fit it is where people routinely get
near the tracks: stations. The detectors would be fitted in front of the
platforms (which are straight) and could stop a train coming into the
station if someone or something had fallen from a platform on to the
tracks. Aren't remotely monitored level crossings already fitted with
similar devices?

I'm surprised the RMT haven't picked up on this with an I-told-you-so
tagline. If they did they'd have a point. The DLR is a damn sight busier
than it was ever envisiged to be and I'm not convinced that not having the
train operator at the front is a good idea any more.

How many incidents have there been?

How many do their need to be? I think the DLR are lucky that for some reason
suiciders seem to prefer the tube or NR for their finale.

Perhaps I can refer you to what you said of the 2000 road deaths:

Around 2000 deaths pa

So what? That amount barely even registers in the total deaths in the UK
per annum which is about 500K. Also that amount has been dropping steadily
since the 70s despite the vast increase in the number of cars on our roads.

Anyway, guess what - life has risks. Get over it.

So you think 2000 road deaths 'barely even registers', but a single
DLR death is intolerable?

And if you think having a human driver would save lives on the DLR,
how come most of the rail fatalities happen with trains with human
drivers on the Tube and NR?

On 2015-04-24 11:42:53 +0000, Recliner said:

And if you think having a human driver would save lives on the DLR,
how come most of the rail fatalities happen with trains with human
drivers on the Tube and NR?

There have been a fair few suicides on the DLR as my other post notes
although of course suicides are very hard to avoid.

But my is that I would have thought that a driverless train would have
some kind of obstruction detection system for any kind of hazard, but
it seems not.

E.

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:42:53 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:48:01 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:
How many do their need to be? I think the DLR are lucky that for some reason
suiciders seem to prefer the tube or NR for their finale.

Perhaps I can refer you to what you said of the 2000 road deaths:

And? 2000 is nothing compared to the total, but getting the DLR train op to
sit at the front costs nothing. Its not like do anything useful anyway apart
from open and close the doors which they could easily do from the desk.

So what? That amount barely even registers in the total deaths in the UK
per annum which is about 500K. Also that amount has been dropping steadily
since the 70s despite the vast increase in the number of cars on our roads.

Anyway, guess what - life has risks. Get over it.

So you think 2000 road deaths 'barely even registers', but a single
DLR death is intolerable?

Where did I use the word intolerable? But since the fix is so bloody easy -
and in this case would have saved her life despite some idiots saying 12
seconds wouldn't be enough to stop the train, oh please - then why not do it?

And if you think having a human driver would save lives on the DLR,
how come most of the rail fatalities happen with trains with human
drivers on the Tube and NR?

Well the DLR is somewhat smaller so will proportionatly less. But as to why
people prefer to chuck themselves in front of a tube I have no idea. Perhaps
they can't be arsed to travel to east london first. Buy a Quija board and find
out then get back to us.

--
Spud

wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:42:53 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:48:01 +0000 (UTC),
d wrote:
How many do their need to be? I think the DLR are lucky that for some reason
suiciders seem to prefer the tube or NR for their finale.

Perhaps I can refer you to what you said of the 2000 road deaths:

And? 2000 is nothing compared to the total, but getting the DLR train op to
sit at the front costs nothing. Its not like do anything useful anyway apart
from open and close the doors which they could easily do from the desk.

In case you haven't noticed, they also check tickets. Presumably you're an
expert on how to dodge the ticket checks, but not everyone has your
expertise in this area.

I'm also not sure they could even do their door checking duties from the
front console. In any case, if a would-be suicide throws themselves on the
track just as the train enters the platform, driver or no driver, they'll
still be hit and probably killed.


So what? That amount barely even registers in the total deaths in the UK
per annum which is about 500K. Also that amount has been dropping steadily
since the 70s despite the vast increase in the number of cars on our roads.

Anyway, guess what - life has risks. Get over it.

So you think 2000 road deaths 'barely even registers', but a single
DLR death is intolerable?

Where did I use the word intolerable? But since the fix is so bloody easy -
and in this case would have saved her life despite some idiots saying 12
seconds wouldn't be enough to stop the train, oh please - then why not do it?

And if you think having a human driver would save lives on the DLR,
how come most of the rail fatalities happen with trains with human
drivers on the Tube and NR?

Well the DLR is somewhat smaller so will proportionatly less. But as to why
people prefer to chuck themselves in front of a tube I have no idea. Perhaps
they can't be arsed to travel to east london first. Buy a Quija board and find
out then get back to us.

Maybe they think DLR trains are too slow? In any case, we already know
that having a driver doesn't stop successful suicides and accidental
deaths, so it'll probably be a pointless change.

eastender wrote:
On 2015-04-24 11:42:53 +0000, Recliner said:

And if you think having a human driver would save lives on the DLR,
how come most of the rail fatalities happen with trains with human
drivers on the Tube and NR?

There have been a fair few suicides on the DLR as my other post notes
although of course suicides are very hard to avoid.

But my is that I would have thought that a driverless train would have
some kind of obstruction detection system for any kind of hazard, but it seems not.

Yes, I was surprised at the number of fatalities. I'm not sure an
obstruction detector would prevent suicides as the person would throw
themselves under just as the train enters the platform, when it's too late
to stop the train. However, it might reduce the surprising number of
accidental deaths and injuries.

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:03:05 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
In case you haven't noticed, they also check tickets. Presumably you're an

I hadn't noticed. I currently travel on it mon-fri and I've yet to spot
them checking tickets in the rush hour. Probably because they'd barely be
able to move through the carraige. Like I said - there's no reason for them
not to sit at the front.

expert on how to dodge the ticket checks, but not everyone has your
expertise in this area.

It doesn't take a genius to spot the holes in TfLs system.

I'm also not sure they could even do their door checking duties from the
front console. In any case, if a would-be suicide throws themselves on the

All stations have monitors and/or mirrors so yes they can and do.

track just as the train enters the platform, driver or no driver, they'll
still be hit and probably killed.

Except the person who was killed fell on the track by accident apparently
12 seconds before the train ran over her. Unless the driver was asleep he'd
have had no problem stopping the train in time.

Maybe they think DLR trains are too slow? In any case, we already know
that having a driver doesn't stop successful suicides and accidental
deaths, so it'll probably be a pointless change.

Is there such thing as an unsuccessful suicide or a successful accidental
death?

Unless you're claiming that no train with a driver has ever managed to make an
emergency stop before hitting something or someone on the track in the entire
history of railways, then I think you'll have to concede that having a pair
of eyes up front is probably a Good Thing.

--
Spud

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:03:05 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:42:53 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:48:01 +0000 (UTC),
d wrote:
How many do their need to be? I think the DLR are lucky that for some reason
suiciders seem to prefer the tube or NR for their finale.

Perhaps I can refer you to what you said of the 2000 road deaths:

And? 2000 is nothing compared to the total, but getting the DLR train op to
sit at the front costs nothing. Its not like do anything useful anyway apart
from open and close the doors which they could easily do from the desk.

In case you haven't noticed, they also check tickets. Presumably you're an
expert on how to dodge the ticket checks, but not everyone has your
expertise in this area.

I think not, 'cos it's not feasable with the current 3-unit trains.
Back when it was a small system with 11 units & not so many passengers
the train captains had ample time to check tickets & dish-out tourist
info, but now it's a busy little network & it can't be done.

Oyster usage replacing printed tickets might be another factor, & it's
still possible to deploy the the Revenue Protection teams as & when
needed.

I'm also not sure they could even do their door checking duties from the
front console. In any case, if a would-be suicide throws themselves on the
track just as the train enters the platform, driver or no driver, they'll
still be hit and probably killed.

If a train is being driven in manual mode there is no need to leave
the control desk to open & close doors, platform mirrors were
installed from day 1,

DC

---
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On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 16:16:12 +0100, David C wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:03:05 +0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:42:53 +0100
Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:48:01 +0000 (UTC),
d wrote:
How many do their need to be? I think the DLR are lucky that for some reason
suiciders seem to prefer the tube or NR for their finale.

Perhaps I can refer you to what you said of the 2000 road deaths:

And? 2000 is nothing compared to the total, but getting the DLR train op to
sit at the front costs nothing. Its not like do anything useful anyway apart
from open and close the doors which they could easily do from the desk.

In case you haven't noticed, they also check tickets. Presumably you're an
expert on how to dodge the ticket checks, but not everyone has your
expertise in this area.

I think not, 'cos it's not feasable with the current 3-unit trains.
Back when it was a small system with 11 units & not so many passengers
the train captains had ample time to check tickets & dish-out tourist
info, but now it's a busy little network & it can't be done.

Why can't they check tickets and Oyster cards in whichever car they're
in? I'm pretty sure they still do, from time to time, and of course
they can move between the cars at stops.


Oyster usage replacing printed tickets might be another factor, & it's
still possible to deploy the the Revenue Protection teams as & when
needed.

They can check Oyster cards.

On 24.04.15 12:42, Recliner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:48:01 +0000 (UTC),
d wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 05:35:32 -0500
wrote:
In article , d
() wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:36:52 +0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
Given the tight curves and so on of the DLR system it might actually be
quite difficult to detect something at or exceeding your stopping
distance which is obstructing the tracks or even harder the bits
between or at the side of the tracks.

Presumably the only places you'd fit it is where people routinely get
near the tracks: stations. The detectors would be fitted in front of the
platforms (which are straight) and could stop a train coming into the
station if someone or something had fallen from a platform on to the
tracks. Aren't remotely monitored level crossings already fitted with
similar devices?

I'm surprised the RMT haven't picked up on this with an I-told-you-so
tagline. If they did they'd have a point. The DLR is a damn sight busier
than it was ever envisiged to be and I'm not convinced that not having the
train operator at the front is a good idea any more.

How many incidents have there been?

How many do their need to be? I think the DLR are lucky that for some reason
suiciders seem to prefer the tube or NR for their finale.

Perhaps I can refer you to what you said of the 2000 road deaths:

Around 2000 deaths pa

So what? That amount barely even registers in the total deaths in the UK
per annum which is about 500K. Also that amount has been dropping steadily
since the 70s despite the vast increase in the number of cars on our roads.

Anyway, guess what - life has risks. Get over it.

So you think 2000 road deaths 'barely even registers', but a single
DLR death is intolerable?

And if you think having a human driver would save lives on the DLR,
how come most of the rail fatalities happen with trains with human
drivers on the Tube and NR?

Aren't there detectors at stations that will either stop a train or cut
power in the event that somebody falls onto the tracks.

Skytrain in Vancouver has such a system, AIUI.

On 24.04.15 15:05, Recliner wrote:
eastender wrote:
On 2015-04-24 11:42:53 +0000, Recliner said:

And if you think having a human driver would save lives on the DLR,
how come most of the rail fatalities happen with trains with human
drivers on the Tube and NR?

There have been a fair few suicides on the DLR as my other post notes
although of course suicides are very hard to avoid.

But my is that I would have thought that a driverless train would have
some kind of obstruction detection system for any kind of hazard, but it seems not.

Yes, I was surprised at the number of fatalities. I'm not sure an
obstruction detector would prevent suicides as the person would throw
themselves under just as the train enters the platform, when it's too late
to stop the train. However, it might reduce the surprising number of
accidental deaths and injuries.


Driver or no, it will not make a difference if somebody falls onto the
tracks, deliberately or otherwise, if a train is too close.