On 09/05/2016 17:45, Paul Corfield wrote:

The crucial issue is whether the 3 caps are hard wired into the card
and system design or if there is flexibility to add more caps within
the system.

Isn't part of the point of the new back office system for contactless
that it can be told to do more and cleverer stuff?

If there is flexibility then yes, broadly, an hourly cap
works *provided* you don't care about whether people can make a return
journey for a single fare within 1 hour.

That has long been possible on Tramlink (within 90 minutes, maybe?).

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 14:02:08 on Mon, 9
May 2016, Walter Briscoe remarked:
It says he will "Freeze TfL transport fares for four years and introduce
a one-hour bus ‘Hopper’ ticket ..."

Is the Hopper one hour between first and last touch-in, given that
people don't touch *out*?

And that some single journeys can take more than an hour.

Or make it that you have to touch out of bus journeys and treat it
similarly to underground/rail OSI such that touching in on one bus
within a period of touching out of another, is considered to be one
journey. So for example if you were to travel from Waterloo to
Paddington by catching a 211 or 507 and change at Victoria to the next
36 or 436, it would count as one journey.

In message , at 17:45:25 on
Mon, 9 May 2016, Paul Corfield remarked:

an hourly cap works *provided* you don't care about whether people can
make a return journey for a single fare within 1 hour. If you do care
about that then the checking logic becomes very complex indeed.

Notwithstanding you go on to say some administrations seek to ban that,
I doubt if the Mayor has mixed such a thing into his promise.

The only place I recall permission plus a limit (maybe an hour, I don't
remember) on multiple trips - which includes their Metro as well as
buses - is Brussels and I don't think that has an anti-return or
anti-circular-trip mechanism.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
18:38:29 on Mon, 9 May 2016, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
The crucial issue is whether the 3 caps are hard wired into the card
and system design or if there is flexibility to add more caps within
the system.

Isn't part of the point of the new back office system for contactless
that it can be told to do more and cleverer stuff?

But doesn't it still do no capping at all (or am I out of date)?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 19:49:39 on Mon,
9 May 2016, Graham Murray remarked:
Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 14:02:08 on Mon, 9
May 2016, Walter Briscoe remarked:
It says he will "Freeze TfL transport fares for four years and introduce
a one-hour bus ‘Hopper’ ticket ..."

Is the Hopper one hour between first and last touch-in, given that
people don't touch *out*?

And that some single journeys can take more than an hour.

Such a journey doesn't require two tickets now, and few would expect it
to in future.

Or make it that you have to touch out of bus journeys and treat it
similarly to underground/rail OSI such that touching in on one bus
within a period of touching out of another, is considered to be one
journey. So for example if you were to travel from Waterloo to
Paddington by catching a 211 or 507 and change at Victoria to the next
36 or 436, it would count as one journey.

An hour is a rather small granularity to be messing with OSIs I think.
--
Roland Perry

On 09/05/2016 18:38, Arthur Figgis wrote:

On 09/05/2016 17:45, Paul Corfield wrote:

The crucial issue is whether the 3 caps are hard wired into the card
and system design or if there is flexibility to add more caps within
the system.

Isn't part of the point of the new back office system for contactless
that it can be told to do more and cleverer stuff?

Yep, ditto my thinking. (Hence Monday-Sunday caps on contactless and
whatever else may yet be to come.)


If there is flexibility then yes, broadly, an hourly cap
works *provided* you don't care about whether people can make a return
journey for a single fare within 1 hour.

That has long been possible on Tramlink (within 90 minutes, maybe?).


70 minutes for contactless/Oyster, but only one change, i.e. using two
trams. It's 90 minutes for paper single tickets (still available at tram
stop ticket machines).

It also allows for one free change from some local buses which feed the
tram in the New Addington area (used to be T-prefixed bus routes but the
bus network was remodelled recently so the T-buses are no more) -
however again this is just one free transfer, i.e. feeder bus+tram, so
feeder bus+tram+tram is two fares.

All outlined on this page (inc list of feeder bus routes):
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/bus-and-tram

If the Oyster system isn't flexible enough for the 'hour hopper' ticket,
then I could imagine the 70 minute one free transfer being implemented
instead (i.e. copying what happens on Tramlink). Not what was in the
manifesto, but arguably close enough.

On 08/05/2016 14:21, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
-sept
ember.org, at 08:59:56 on Sun, 8 May 2016, Recliner
remarked:
He's also the Brit with the largest-ever personal mandate:
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-05-07/new-london-mayor-sadiq-khan-receives-the-biggest-personal-mandate-in-british-political-history/


1.3m votes (including second preference) from a City of 8.5m people only
5.5m have registered to vote is not that big of an endorsement.

Much the same can be said of the votes accrued to any one political
party in a general election.

The point of that article is just that (lots of) people voted directly
for him, which is explained by his position (Mayor) being highly unusual
in British terms given the size of the electorate. Though in future
further metro Mayors are on their way (e.g. Greater Manchester).


But as an out-of-London person, I'll be doing my best to keep him to his
very clear promise not to increase TfL fares for the next four years.

Amongst other things, worth bearing in mind that the Travelcard is a
joint TfL+NR product, and so the new Mayor won't be able to unilaterally
freeze the prices of it - though IIRC he will be able to insist on it
only increasing by inflation/RPI (the rule is that any above-RPI
increases need to be agreed by both the London TOCs and TfL - the TOCs
will basically always agree to that, meanwhile what TfL agrees to
depends on the Mayor's policy).

He also has no power to freeze NR Oyster/contactless PAYG fares (and
UIVMM part of the Crossrail concession deal between TfL and central
government is that Crossrail/Betty line fares are on the NR fare scale).


Not a big bus user currently, but his promise of transferable fares for
an hour is also something which might well make me use them more.

You can enjoy one of Boris's legacies, the Roastmaster bus, which has
come out to play in the recent hot weather!

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 9 May 2016 15:54:44 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 15:46:23 on
Mon, 9 May 2016, Paul Corfield remarked:
As we have no commercial product definition for the "Hopper Ticket" it
is impossible to say whether the technology currently on buses and in
central systems can support the new product. I could speculate in all
sorts of ways as to how it could work but there'd be no point. My
only observation would be that I can't see that it will be a "quick
fix" issue taking only weeks to introduce.

If it's based on the current hardware, then an "hourly cap" would seem
to fit the bill, and the Oyster daily capping software is already in
place (isn't it?)

Yes but AFAIK there are only 3 caps that can be supported - bus and
tram day cap, off peak daily,

hasn't the off peak cap been abolished?

tim

On 09/05/2016 23:14, tim... wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:
[...]
If it's based on the current hardware, then an "hourly cap" would seem
to fit the bill, and the Oyster daily capping software is already in
place (isn't it?)

Yes but AFAIK there are only 3 caps that can be supported - bus and
tram day cap, off peak daily,

hasn't the off peak cap been abolished?


Yes within zones 1-6 (though still exists beyond), but a change in fares
policy doesn't mean the technical specifications of Oyster magically
change at the same time.

See the differential peak and off-peak caps for journeys beyond zone 6
in these tables:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/adult-fares.pdf
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/national-rail-adult-fares.pdf

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 9 May 2016 19:53:20 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 17:45:25 on
Mon, 9 May 2016, Paul Corfield remarked:

an hourly cap works *provided* you don't care about whether people can
make a return journey for a single fare within 1 hour. If you do care
about that then the checking logic becomes very complex indeed.

Notwithstanding you go on to say some administrations seek to ban that,
I doubt if the Mayor has mixed such a thing into his promise.

The only place I recall permission plus a limit (maybe an hour, I don't
remember) on multiple trips - which includes their Metro as well as
buses - is Brussels and I don't think that has an anti-return or
anti-circular-trip mechanism.


The 1 hour Hopper ticket launches in September.

https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/st...59297308823552

As I expected TfL have obviously been working away in the background
so there's a quick win delivery of part of the manifesto.

Good work. I guess they could read the opinion polls just like everyone
else, and realised very early on that Sadiq was the likely winner and they
should be helping him with one of his key pledges.

I did notice that in one of his victory speeches he was fulsome in his
praise for the police and fire services, but just said that he looked
forward to working with TfL. He's also on the record as saying how flabby
and wasteful it is:

"Fares don’t have to keep going up like this.

Because at the same time as fares have gone up, TfL has become more and
more bloated.
They simply haven’t had to make the efficiency savings that other parts of
the public sector have had to in recent years.

Did you know - they pay 450 staff more than £100,000 a year.

They spend £383 million a year on consultants and agency workers – which
has more than doubled under Boris Johnson.

They wasted £900 million on the tube signalling contract disaster with
Bombardier.

And they bizarrely still have entirely separate engineering operations for
underground and surface transport - which wastes hundreds of millions of
pounds on two sets of overheads, backroom functions and procurement.
So TfL is flabby.

And it’s not acceptable."

From
http://www.sadiq.london/i_ll_be_the_...ore_affordable