In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:

To get the full facts then read the Mayoral Decision.

https://www.london.gov.uk/decisions/...-fares-20-may-
018

It is absolutely clear that Daily / 7 Day and longer Travelcards valid in
Zone 6 will be valid to Heathrow using TfL. Ditto for daily / weekly
caps covering travel to Zone 6.

What that doesn't explicitly reveal is how outboundary through fares
such as:

It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I don't think Sadiq can afford to have £1.50 flat fares across the whole
of the TfL empire; he can't even afford to keep his price-pledge when
part of the journey is on NR trains.

The obvious and simple solution is to make Heathow unequivocally in zone
6, except that would also be costly because:

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

(b) you'd lose the single-trip[1] "tourist[2] tax" which is most of what
this Byzantine fares structure at Heathrow is designed to collect

[1] It's notable that TfL is trying to spin "being able to take more
than that one single trip, for just 40p extra" as a benefit to
tourists, when all it's actually doing is bringing them under the
wing of temporary regular commuter fare structure.

[2] Which includes, specific to my last posting, Brits living
outboundary who depart Heathrow one day, and return on another.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping for the tube would be
reasonable. With the amount of tourists who go 1 or 2 stops because they're
too lazy to walk (no excuse not to have some kind of map these days) they'd
probably clean up.

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

An easier way would be to make it part of the condition for a 3rd runway.
"You want a runway that will blight the lives of millions of londoners,
cause untold extra pollution both on the ground and in the air and will cost
taxpayers a fortune? Then hand over Hex"

On 19/03/2018 11:25, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping

Does that include travel cards?

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:31:20 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 11:25, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the
buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping

Does that include travel cards?

What travel cards? You'd pay a flat fare per trip.

On 19/03/2018 11:46, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:31:20 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 11:25, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the
buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping

Does that include travel cards?

What travel cards? You'd pay a flat fare per trip.

Potentially more than doubling the cost of some annual fares? Yes, I
can see that being a popular policy....

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:26:01 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 11:46, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:31:20 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 11:25, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in
flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the
buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a
bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping

Does that include travel cards?

What travel cards? You'd pay a flat fare per trip.

Potentially more than doubling the cost of some annual fares? Yes, I
can see that being a popular policy....

Why would it? For people who simply commute in and out it would be cheaper
unless they're only commuting within zone 1.

If you mean travel cards for national rail, too bad, they can pay the tube
fare or walk. The difference would have to be made up somewhere.

On 19/03/2018 12:46, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:26:01 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 11:46, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:31:20 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 11:25, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 11:09:36 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:39:40 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:
It really is time to ditch this overcomplicated nonsense and bring in
flat
fares as is done in many other parts of the world. If it can work on the
buses
it can work on TfLs tube and train lines.

Except the flat fare on a bus differs from the flat fare on the tube,
which differs from the flat fare on a train.

I wouldn't expect it to be the same tbh. You'd sit in a traffic jam in a
bus
if you wanted cheap, you'd pay more if you wanted to get their faster by
the tube. I reckon 2-3 quid flat fare with no capping

Does that include travel cards?

What travel cards? You'd pay a flat fare per trip.

Potentially more than doubling the cost of some annual fares? Yes, I
can see that being a popular policy....

Why would it? For people who simply commute in and out it would be cheaper
unless they're only commuting within zone 1.

If you mean travel cards for national rail, too bad, they can pay the tube
fare or walk. The difference would have to be made up somewhere.

2 journeys a day in zone 3, £6. Include weekends, but no extra trips.

6 * 365 = £2190

Zone 3-4 travelcard = £1020

Yes, there are holidays and so on but then again some people make lots
of trips on top of commuting so it may even out.

In message , at 11:25:15 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

An easier way would be to make it part of the condition for a 3rd runway.
"You want a runway that will blight the lives of millions of londoners,
cause untold extra pollution both on the ground and in the air and will cost
taxpayers a fortune? Then hand over Hex"

Part of the problem with that, is the main reason for HEx is to abstract
traffic from black cabs, aiming at the market for whom it's "A cab or
the Airport Express", and whatever you do to try to persuade them to use
what feels to a visitor like the local metro, doesn't deliver.

If anything a new 3rd runway will need HEx even more, to deliver the
pollution reduction targets.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 13:17:14 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:25:15 on Mon, 19 Mar
2018, remarked:

(a) it would involve buying-out Heathrow's private infrastructure and
somehow compensating them for the lost premium fare revenue on HEx

An easier way would be to make it part of the condition for a 3rd runway.
"You want a runway that will blight the lives of millions of londoners,
cause untold extra pollution both on the ground and in the air and will cost
taxpayers a fortune? Then hand over Hex"

Part of the problem with that, is the main reason for HEx is to abstract
traffic from black cabs, aiming at the market for whom it's "A cab or
the Airport Express", and whatever you do to try to persuade them to use
what feels to a visitor like the local metro, doesn't deliver.

Possibly, but I would guess that the majority of people who would prefer to
take a train to central london don't want to pay extortionate fares only to be
dumped at paddington.

If anything a new 3rd runway will need HEx even more, to deliver the
pollution reduction targets.

Given an airliner can use anything up to a ton of fuel (747) just to taxi
around a large airport such as Heathrow , the contribution of ground traffic
to the overall pollution increase that the 3rd runway will cause is probably
negligable.

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:54:58 +0000
Someone Somewhere wrote:
On 19/03/2018 12:46, wrote:
If you mean travel cards for national rail, too bad, they can pay the tube
fare or walk. The difference would have to be made up somewhere.

2 journeys a day in zone 3, £6. Include weekends, but no extra trips.

6 * 365 = £2190

Zone 3-4 travelcard = £1020

Zone 1-4 = 1960, 1-5 = 2328, 1-6 = 2492

Plus 3 quid was at my upper limit, 2.50 IMO would be more reasonable so
the cost comes down to 5 * 365 = 1825. Subtract weekends and its 5 * 260 = 1300

Yes, there are holidays and so on but then again some people make lots
of trips on top of commuting so it may even out.

Some people, yes, but with a flat fare someone will always end up paying more
or it wouldn't be viable, but everyone benefits from a simpler fare system plus
its less costly to administer, the savings of which can be passed back to the
passenger. Plus there's a chance fare dodging could drop depending on how
they rejigged the entry gates - you can't force your way through or over a
head high turnstile (at least not without people noticing) like in the paris
metro and numerous football grounds. Exit gates could be a simple waist high
one.