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Old October 12th 18, 03:27 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton


https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/trams/the-future-of-trams

The pdf file contains the name of Dave Arquati formerly of this parish.

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Old October 12th 18, 08:27 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton



"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/trams/the-future-of-trams


"Since 2000, we have seen the number of passengers on trams increase from 14
million to 32 million passengers in 2015. Passenger numbers are expected to
reach nearly 60 million by 2030.

We need to upgrade the trams network to accommodate this growth"

Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra capacity
to accommodate growth on the current network?

and then there's

"The second phase would unlock the potential of the Wandle Valley and St
Helier areas for housing,"

Um, what part of these areas that is not already built on do they think has
not been deliberately left as open space for leisure purposes?

Perhaps they think that there should be a new estate on Morden Hall park. I
doubt that the National Trust would agree with that idea

and if we are going to build on this green space, there isn't a need for a
new transport link to accommodate it.

Though it's great to see the line being used extensively

I had 30 years growing up with a local station that got a next to useless
service and consequently whenever you did go and use it it had little more
than a dozen passengers.

and now it's got full [1] trains running every 5 minutes for 18 hours of the
day.

There must be a lesson here that can be learnt for (some) other Cinderella
services.

[1] OK I concede that when I last used it - at 8:30 on a Saturday morning,
there was just me and the station cat.








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Old October 12th 18, 08:45 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton

On Friday, 12 October 2018 08:28:10 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"Basil Jet" basilpam.com wrote in message
news

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/trams/the-future-of-trams


"Since 2000, we have seen the number of passengers on trams increase from 14
million to 32 million passengers in 2015. Passenger numbers are expected to
reach nearly 60 million by 2030.

We need to upgrade the trams network to accommodate this growth"

Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra capacity
to accommodate growth on the current network?

and then there's

"The second phase would unlock the potential of the Wandle Valley and St
Helier areas for housing,"

Um, what part of these areas that is not already built on do they think has
not been deliberately left as open space for leisure purposes?

Perhaps they think that there should be a new estate on Morden Hall park. I
doubt that the National Trust would agree with that idea

and if we are going to build on this green space, there isn't a need for a
new transport link to accommodate it.

Though it's great to see the line being used extensively

I had 30 years growing up with a local station that got a next to useless
service and consequently whenever you did go and use it it had little more
than a dozen passengers.

and now it's got full [1] trains running every 5 minutes for 18 hours of the
day.

There must be a lesson here that can be learnt for (some) other Cinderella
services.

[1] OK I concede that when I last used it - at 8:30 on a Saturday morning,
there was just me and the station cat.


Although I agree with the general tram extension idea, Tim is right about the extra housing paradox. Extra householders to take the tram to South Wimbledon to take the Northern Line to Bank... That is just smarming the problem around.
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Old October 12th 18, 09:30 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton

On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?

Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to
the old one. That's what HS2 is all about.
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Old October 12th 18, 09:47 AM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton

tim... wrote:


"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/trams/the-future-of-trams


"Since 2000, we have seen the number of passengers on trams increase from 14
million to 32 million passengers in 2015. Passenger numbers are expected to
reach nearly 60 million by 2030.

We need to upgrade the trams network to accommodate this growth"

Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra capacity
to accommodate growth on the current network?

and then there's

"The second phase would unlock the potential of the Wandle Valley and St
Helier areas for housing,"

Um, what part of these areas that is not already built on do they think has
not been deliberately left as open space for leisure purposes?


I don't know that area, so can't comment on the specific. But in my part
of suburban London, more dwellings are being squeezed into the landscape
by:

- Redeveloping petrol stations. Every independent petrol station and small
garage within a mile from me has been replaced by a block of flats. They've
been put out of business by supermarket fuel stations.

- Converting office space to residential. Numerous office blocks have
either been converted into, or replaced by, apartment blocks. I can think
of a nearby hotel that suffered the same fate.

- Squeezing new houses into large gardens.

- Replacing a row of large family houses into a new apartment block
complex.

- In one case, a row of large houses had been converted into a private
school. That's now gone, to be replaced by a block of retirement flats.

Apart, perhaps, from the retirement flats, all these new dwellings (few of
which have off-street parking) will increase the load on local public
transport services.



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Old October 12th 18, 11:56 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton



"martin.coffee" wrote in message
news
On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?

Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to the
old one.


the new line doesn't parallel the old one.

It goes somewhere completely different (having shared track for the first
2/3 stations

That's what HS2 is all about.


It's not analogous at all



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Old October 12th 18, 12:20 PM posted to uk.transport.london,uk.railway
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton



"Recliner" wrote in message
news
tim... wrote:


"Basil Jet" wrote in message
news

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/trams/the-future-of-trams


"Since 2000, we have seen the number of passengers on trams increase from
14
million to 32 million passengers in 2015. Passenger numbers are expected
to
reach nearly 60 million by 2030.

We need to upgrade the trams network to accommodate this growth"

Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity
to accommodate growth on the current network?

and then there's

"The second phase would unlock the potential of the Wandle Valley and St
Helier areas for housing,"

Um, what part of these areas that is not already built on do they think
has
not been deliberately left as open space for leisure purposes?


I don't know that area, so can't comment on the specific.


Well I do, as I spent the first 30 years of my life living there (and still
occasionally pass through).

But even so, I mis-understood the area that they meant by Wandle valley.

As they linked it with "and St Helier" I assumed that they meant the bit of
the river from around Morden Road station to Carshalton, which (more or
less) is adjacent to St Helier, and likely to be serviced, at last in part,
by a new tram to Sutton.

That part of the river, where it is not already built up, flows through the
very small amount of "high quality" open space that exists in the area, for
which the suggestion of building upon it would not go down well with the
community (not to mention the Eco Numpties).

However, it seems (having now read the whole document and not just the
summary) that they mean the area around the Waddon Trading estates (where
IKEA is) which, as this is mostly brown-field run down industrial sites,
does seem ripe for redevelopment, where that has not happened already. So
I'll concede that one to them.

But as for St Helier.

It is mostly packed in terraced 2/3 bedroom houses with tiny gardens
interspersed with deliberately planned open green space.

And, apart from a couple of run down and closed pubs, I can't think of a
redundant commercial property in the area at all.

As far as I can see the only way that you could build more than a very
nominal increase in properties in the area is to build on the deliberately
left open, open space. (some of which is already earmarked for a replacement
hospital, when/if they have funding)

tim





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Old October 12th 18, 04:14 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton

tim... wrote:

"martin.coffee" wrote in message
news
On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?

Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to the
old one.


the new line doesn't parallel the old one.

It goes somewhere completely different (having shared track for the first
2/3 stations


You cannot put more trams into Wimbledon station as there is no space so
if you want to increase the numbr of trams along Croydon-Wimbledon axis
you need another terminal. Thus add South Wimbledon - and in ths case
not all its trams will go to Sutton others will go to Croydon.


And that is what is says in the document.

Unlocking
the potential of the
Wandle Valley


"Trams could unlock this by delivering
a new South Wimbledon-Croydon
service, offering more capacity and
new connectivity
• The housing gain could help fund
many of the needed tram
enhancements
"

Note Wandle Valley is along the current Croydon-Mitcham tram line.


That's what HS2 is all about.


It's not analogous at all




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Old October 12th 18, 05:22 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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"Mark Bestley" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:

"martin.coffee" wrote in message
news
On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?
Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to
the
old one.


the new line doesn't parallel the old one.

It goes somewhere completely different (having shared track for the first
2/3 stations


You cannot put more trams into Wimbledon station as there is no space so
if you want to increase the numbr of trams along Croydon-Wimbledon axis
you need another terminal. Thus add South Wimbledon - and in ths case
not all its trams will go to Sutton others will go to Croydon.


And that is what is says in the document.

Unlocking
the potential of the
Wandle Valley


"Trams could unlock this by delivering
a new South Wimbledon-Croydon
service, offering more capacity and
new connectivity
• The housing gain could help fund
many of the needed tram
enhancements
"

Note Wandle Valley is along the current Croydon-Mitcham tram line.


but that's all provided by the new (proposed) terminus at S Wimbledon

the line to Sutton provides none of that benefit, that's my point.

You might argue that building the line to Sutton makes the S Wimbledon
terminus more cost effective, but that's a fallacious argument.

And in any case, if the congested part of the route is at Wandle Valley and
you need somewhere short of Wimbledon to turn extra services from Croydon
(until Crossrail 2 (don't laugh) releases space at Wimbledon Main), adding a
third platform/track at Merton Park by using the (still undeveloped) land
previously occupied by the junction to Merton Abbey, seems a much
quicker/cheaper way to provide that.

It might be argued that a terminus at Merton Park is no good to anybody, but
what is the real benefit of S Wimbledon. Oh it interchanges with the
underground. Though what percentage of travellers are going to want to do
that (given that trams from Sutton have already passed Morden station)? For
Central London, change at Wimbledon onto Waterloo services is much quicker.

And where is this route to SW going to go. Down the already very congested
main road? And where's the station going to be? I can't see that putting a
station there is going to be possible without knocking down a number of
properties (or putting it underground).

This idea of a track to SW just looks like, what did someone call it
"lineism!

tim



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Old October 12th 18, 06:13 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Trams from South Wimbledon to Sutton

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:56:57 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"martin.coffee" wrote in message
news
On 12/10/18 08:27, tim... wrote:
Um, how does building a new line to serve a new area create extra
capacity to accommodate growth on the current network?

Because some passengers will start using the new line in preference to the
old one.


the new line doesn't parallel the old one.

It goes somewhere completely different (having shared track for the first
2/3 stations

That's what HS2 is all about.


It's not analogous at all


It seems to me they are responding to some kites that other people
have flown relating to where new housing might be placed. At the
same time, they are also trying to resolves issues relating to access
to central Croydon by proposing turn back loops on either side of the
town centre since they believe they can't improve the frequency across
the town centre. Finally, the idea of new track is too tempting to
ignore!

I suspect they are flying their own kites in part to try and smoke out
some actual proposals they can latch on to.


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