On 17/12/2018 11:47, Optimist wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:11:02 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:29:11 on Sun, 16 Dec
2018, tim... remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have
a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds rapidly enough.

surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution,
they can set up an online account that does all this

Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which
appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a
school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online
account for even the Head's car, should he have some official
business the other side of the river. How would that account not
end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal
payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip.

you haven't thought that through, have you

If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through
the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these
journey

Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge
get levied against when the car passes through.

I have no idea what happens if you try this

And I have no intention of finding out.

I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too.

so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway

telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay
his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well

What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.

so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?

surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.

Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person
took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the
crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than
pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require
receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary
credit. Both of which can be an issue.

Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by
midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme
has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures.

BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no
connection to the post pay option

The postal option is pre-pay too.

but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.

The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day.

the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey

The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account.

(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)

The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.

so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account

On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.

Banks don't check signatures anyway.

Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
a single order and in total during (usually) a month. And employee A's
purchases were in an account sent to a second employee B. B was
responsible for checking that the items looked reasonable - and
sometimes for spot checks to verify with the end user - before
authorising payment. Plus of course all the usual managerial oversight,
budget controls, internal audit, etc. Similarly purchasing cycle
systems have worked with 2 electronic "signatures" and without cheques
since the last century.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Robin wrote:
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on

A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.

On 17/12/2018 16:19, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Robin wrote:
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on

A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.


Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message , at
15:37:46 on Mon, 17 Dec 2018, Robin remarked:
On 17/12/2018 11:47, Optimist wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:11:02 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 14:29:11 on Sun, 16 Dec
2018, tim... remarked:

the phone and postal services for the Dart Charge seem quaint and
indulgent compared with the toll roads in eg Sydney where it's
electronic or else - including for visitors in hire cars.

The postal service is only for pre-pay, and needs 10days notice.
I'd characterise it more as applying for a season ticket by post
(even if it's only a one-trip season being paid for).

I wonder if it's mainly for institutional vehicles, where
arrangements for reimbursing drivers small amounts of money are
either non-existent or very clumsy, and they don't want to have
a system for drivers to report each trip as it happens, and the
finance department pay the charge from central funds
rapidly enough.

surely if the institutional vehicle belongs to the institution,
they can set up an online account that does all this

Many institutions are leery of online accounts, many of which
appear to them to be akin to blank cheques. I'd be surprised if a
school (even one in Essex or Kent) was happy to set up an online
account for even the Head's car, should he have some official
business the other side of the river. How would that account not
end up also paying for his leisure trips, for example? The postal
payment, however, could be ringfenced for just one trip.

you haven't thought that through, have you

If the head is already making significant leisure journeys through
the tunnel, he is going to want to set up his own account for these
journey

Can you set up two accounts for the same car? Which does the charge
get levied against when the car passes through.

I have no idea what happens if you try this

And I have no intention of finding out.

I'm getting bored trying to do "what if" on the Dart website too.

so the journey that he does make for the institution is going to go
through that account anyway

telling the head that he may not set up an automated account to pay
his weekly tunnel toll, because once a year he makes a journey for
institutional purposes isn't going go down too well

What also doesn't go down well is the head (or especially more junior
members of staff) being told that they'll have to pay the toll
personally because there's no such thing as a petty cash account.

so how are they going to get back the 25 miles at 40ppm then?

surely whatever solution is used for that can be used for the toll.

Mileage can be a problem too, because it requires checking the person
took the 'best' route and so on. Some organisations only pay the
crow-flies mileage as a result. But the bigger issue is that other than
pure mileage, we are into 'disbursements' territory. They require
receipts, and for the employee to advance the employer actual monetary
credit. Both of which can be an issue.

Meanwhile, it's unusual for people to demand to be paid their mileage by
midnight the following day. I also doubt if the online payment scheme
has any ability to arbitrate dual-signatures.

BTW the automatic online accounts are pre-pay. There is no
connection to the post pay option

The postal option is pre-pay too.

but as I understand you, only for a specific journey.

The form doesn't have somewhere to nominate a travel day.

the pre pay account is just a store of money for any future journey

The postal option is a way to 'top up' a type of pre-pay account.

(and FWIW you can have an account containing more than one reg)

The underlying issue is that many Public Sector and most Third Sector
organisations have rules that expenditure requires 'two signatures';
and it's compulsory under the rules dictated by most grant funders.

so you get two people to sign up for the 10 pound transfer to the
online account

On a cheque. While it's possible to set up dual-signature BACS transfers
online, it's a bit of a pain. When I was involved in this I found that
'second signatories' were much more responsive to countersigning a
cheque and dropping it in the prepaid return envelope, than jumping
through all the hoops of a dual-auth online banking account.
Banks don't check signatures anyway.

Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on
a single order and in total during (usually) a month. And employee A's
purchases were in an account sent to a second employee B. B was
responsible for checking that the items looked reasonable - and
sometimes for spot checks to verify with the end user - before
authorising payment.

Who was B authorising to make the payment?

In any event there's a huge difference between raising POs from approved
suppliers, and later doing the paperwork to ensure that Finance can send
payment, and employees turning up saying "look what I just bought on my
personal credit card, can I be reimbursed please".

Plus of course all the usual managerial oversight, budget controls,
internal audit, etc. Similarly purchasing cycle systems have worked
with 2 electronic "signatures" and without cheques since the last
century.

You make it sound as if your objection is slow adoption of technology,
but in fact it's about rules put in place by funders - should they be
County Councils for schools, or the National Lottery for small
charities.

One of the latter I'm aware of had a NL grant and the T&C were specific
that all purchases funded by the grant MUST be paid for with a
two-signatures method, and just to rub it in MUST NOT ever be paid for
on a debit/credit card[1]. In smaller organisations it's often easier to
manage suchpayments by cheque, rather than pester two people to log on
and double-authorise a BACS transfer (although the technology to do that
certainly exists).

In the case of paying a Dart Toll, doing that by midday of the day after
travel is a huge logistical exercise.

Meanwhile, one of the former was a school, which eventually had to break
down and get a debit card to buy some online resources which simply
weren't available any other way. But a procedure had to be put in place
where the schools bursar had the card locked in a safe, and could only
get it out and use it if supervised by another.

That's not a case of mistrusting the people (although it's far from
unknown for large sums to go missing from schools) but simply to follow
established procedures, and also to make sure the card isn't misplaced
and then used fraudulently.

Private companies are much more gung-ho about such things, and I
remember buying a laptop for five grand in today's money twenty years
ago on my personal credit card, and being confident of reimbursement.

On the other hand I've known big firms who mandated their employees got
personal (not company) Amex cards for travel expenses, and then
reimbursed them after the various hoops had been jmped through. The
incentive there is that classic (and often apocryphal) dodgy 'expenses
account' stuff would probably be caught and never re-imbursed; rather
than if it was a company card having to be recovered from the employee.

[1] I'm not sure I've ever seen a dual-PIN debit or credit card, which
has to be a failing of the technology!
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:19:44 on Mon, 17 Dec
2018, remarked:
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on

A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.

Not just that, but huge numbers of traders simply don't take cards.

ObTransport (just): there was an item on the TV news last week about
Holyhead as a ferry port, where they did a vox-pop about the potential
impact to local business should the port become a casualty of a hard
Brexit. One was in a shop selling I think general gifts, and there was a
sign on the door as they went in saying "cash only".

My wife's hairdresser on the High Street only takes cash.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 17/12/2018 16:19, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Robin wrote:
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on

A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.


Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.

How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:48:07 +0000
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:19:44 on Mon, 17 Dec
2018, remarked:
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on

A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.

Not just that, but huge numbers of traders simply don't take cards.

Yup, cheques or cash. Often a discount for the latter, best not to ask why.

My wife's hairdresser on the High Street only takes cash.

My barbers only takes cash too.

On 18/12/2018 09:42, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 17/12/2018 16:19, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Robin wrote:
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on

A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card
machine around when they go to jobs.


Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.

How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.


Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
cards is diminishing rapidly.

Having said that I've just wandered round the Christmas craft market and
all the small traders have card machines tethered to their mobiles.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:13:46 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 18/12/2018 09:42, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 16:31:59 +0000
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 17/12/2018 16:19, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:37:46 +0000
Robin wrote:
Meanwhile vast swathes of both the public and private sectors are
operating in the 21st century with employees placing orders and making
payments online. Eg use of payment cards was common when I retired 13
years ago. There were naturally limits on how much could be charged on

A lot of sole traders don't want the hassle or the fees from lugging a card

machine around when they go to jobs.


Don't need a separate machine, there are smart phone apps that will do
the job now.

How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.


Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless

Really? ITYF most don't.

cards is diminishing rapidly.

Still a 30 quid limit. Useless for almost all tradesmens jobs anyway.

In message , at 11:13:46 on Tue, 18 Dec
2018, Graeme Wall remarked:

How does a smartphone app read chip and pin then? Not all cards are
contactless and not all phones have NFC.

Few smart phones don't have it now and the number of non-contactless
cards is diminishing rapidly.

The Moto G6, by no means an entry level phone, and the latest
acquisition here, doesn't. On the other hand it does have a big battery
*and* a [corded] fast-charge mode.

Which I mention because my LG smartphone has NFC and cordless charging,
but not at the same time. You have to swap phone backs.
--
Roland Perry