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Old September 10th 19, 06:39 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 08/09/2019 15:38, Recliner wrote:

Engineering went metric many decades ago. Nobody would dream of
engineering a new British car using imperial measurements. In fact, no
engineers still working would have any experience of anything but SI
units.

And why do you think car acceleration timings in the UK are quoted for
the 0-62.5mph range? They gave up on 0-60 long ago.


Engineering in my experience still used imperial measurements where I
was working in 2005, sometimes we got orders in for plate steel in feet
and inches, yet a metric thickness and I also saw them in metric sizes
but a specific gauge. They *have* to understand the difference between
the two to prevent any misunderstandings with American companies who
still use feet and inches on a regular basis.

And as you rightly point out it's now 0-62.5mph, still in miles per
hour. Not 0-100 kph.

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Old September 10th 19, 06:45 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message , at 10:06:34 on Mon, 9 Sep 2019,
Basil Jet remarked:
On 09/09/2019 09:25, Marland wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:58:14 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019, Marland remarked:



It was London Transport which recalculated its route measurements to
Kilometres back in 1972 .
Ironically they chose Ongar as the 0 datum

I think they chose Ongar because it was the furthest east.

which means their measurements start on a line that was closed and is
now no longer theirs

It's not the only disappeared datum. Road miles from London were
measured from the Post Office near St Pauls (the tube station used to be
called "Post Office") because postage was originally calculated by the
mile.

Hmm, I always thought it was where the original Charing Cross was
located.

I could see the Post Office might have used its own datum for
postage from its own main London premises for its own purposes but
the Post Office premises you mention were not constructed until the
early 19th Century and many milestones would have been put in place
before that by the Turnpike Trusts who were required to do so.


The date of the building on that site today isn't relevant. Some say the
datum is actually a little further north, at the site now occupied by
Mount Pleasant sorting office; but that doesn't change the basic
principle.

Perhaps someone else can adjudicate.


The wording on this plaque seems pretty definitive

https://ads9rca.wordpress.com/2016/1...tarting-point/


Unfortunately, the plaque doesn't say 'Measured by... whom".

And the elephant in the room is that Charing Cross was the *penultimate*
stop on the trip in question ("a little village near Westminster" in
longer versions of the story), the final destination being Westminster.

If there had been a "final" cross at Westminster (and many people think
Big Ben is where distances are measured from) then it would be far more
compelling.

Quite a few people say that the Charing Cross (or Trafalgar Square in
fact) was chosen as a datum by the AA, as more central of a place in
London bearing in mind how it had developed by the time they started
publishing their own maps.
--
Roland Perry
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Old September 10th 19, 07:21 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Northern Line goes south

Sammi Gray-Jones wrote:
On 08/09/2019 15:38, Recliner wrote:

Engineering went metric many decades ago. Nobody would dream of
engineering a new British car using imperial measurements. In fact, no
engineers still working would have any experience of anything but SI
units.

And why do you think car acceleration timings in the UK are quoted for
the 0-62.5mph range? They gave up on 0-60 long ago.


Engineering in my experience still used imperial measurements where I
was working in 2005, sometimes we got orders in for plate steel in feet
and inches, yet a metric thickness and I also saw them in metric sizes
but a specific gauge. They *have* to understand the difference between
the two to prevent any misunderstandings with American companies who
still use feet and inches on a regular basis.

And as you rightly point out it's now 0-62.5mph, still in miles per
hour. Not 0-100 kph.


It's quoted that way for the benefit of ignorant Brits, but what they
actually measure is 0-100 km/h. Many cars are limited to 250 km/h,
described as '155 mph' for ignorant Brits.

I know the length of my British car in metres, and its weight in kg,
because that's how it was quoted when I bought it. And I'm sure the British
engineers who designed it also used metric.

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Old September 10th 19, 09:41 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Northern Line goes south

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:06:34 on Mon, 9 Sep 2019,
Basil Jet remarked:
On 09/09/2019 09:25, Marland wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:58:14 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019, Marland remarked:


It was London Transport which recalculated its route measurements to
Kilometres back in 1972 .
Ironically they chose Ongar as the 0 datum

I think they chose Ongar because it was the furthest east.

which means their measurements start on a line that was closed and is
now no longer theirs

It's not the only disappeared datum. Road miles from London were
measured from the Post Office near St Pauls (the tube station used to be
called "Post Office") because postage was originally calculated by the
mile.

Hmm, I always thought it was where the original Charing Cross was
located.

I could see the Post Office might have used its own datum for
postage from its own main London premises for its own purposes but
the Post Office premises you mention were not constructed until the
early 19th Century and many milestones would have been put in place
before that by the Turnpike Trusts who were required to do so.


The date of the building on that site today isn't relevant. Some say the
datum is actually a little further north, at the site now occupied by
Mount Pleasant sorting office; but that doesn't change the basic
principle.

Perhaps someone else can adjudicate.


The wording on this plaque seems pretty definitive

https://ads9rca.wordpress.com/2016/1...tarting-point/


Unfortunately, the plaque doesn't say 'Measured by... whom".

And the elephant in the room is that Charing Cross was the *penultimate*
stop on the trip in question ("a little village near Westminster" in
longer versions of the story), the final destination being Westminster.

If there had been a "final" cross at Westminster (and many people think
Big Ben is where distances are measured from) then it would be far more
compelling.

Quite a few people say that the Charing Cross (or Trafalgar Square in
fact) was chosen as a datum by the AA, as more central of a place in
London bearing in mind how it had developed by the time they started
publishing their own maps.


So the real answer is that nobody seems to know which one it should be and
one claim is no better or worse than the other.

GH

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Old September 10th 19, 10:03 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Northern Line goes south

On 10/09/2019 20:21, Recliner wrote:
Sammi Gray-Jones wrote:


And as you rightly point out it's now 0-62.5mph, still in miles per
hour. Not 0-100 kph.


It's quoted that way for the benefit of ignorant Brits, but what they
actually measure is 0-100 km/h. Many cars are limited to 250 km/h,
described as '155 mph' for ignorant Brits.


Excuse me, but I take exception to that. I'm British (not "a Brit"
please, I'm not American either) and I use imperial measurements. I do
so because I was brought up with them and I'm used to them. I fail to
see why I should be forced to use the metric system. Why can't both be
used..? I still struggle to understand the weather forecasts when
temperatures are only quoted in degrees C.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]


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Old September 10th 19, 10:09 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Northern Line goes south

On 10/09/2019 22:41, Marland wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:06:34 on Mon, 9 Sep 2019,
Basil Jet remarked:
On 09/09/2019 09:25, Marland wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

It's not the only disappeared datum. Road miles from London were
measured from the Post Office near St Pauls (the tube station used to be
called "Post Office") because postage was originally calculated by the
mile.

Hmm, I always thought it was where the original Charing Cross was
located.

I could see the Post Office might have used its own datum for
postage from its own main London premises for its own purposes but
the Post Office premises you mention were not constructed until the
early 19th Century and many milestones would have been put in place
before that by the Turnpike Trusts who were required to do so.


The date of the building on that site today isn't relevant. Some say the
datum is actually a little further north, at the site now occupied by
Mount Pleasant sorting office; but that doesn't change the basic
principle.

Perhaps someone else can adjudicate.

The wording on this plaque seems pretty definitive

https://ads9rca.wordpress.com/2016/1...tarting-point/


Unfortunately, the plaque doesn't say 'Measured by... whom".

And the elephant in the room is that Charing Cross was the *penultimate*
stop on the trip in question ("a little village near Westminster" in
longer versions of the story), the final destination being Westminster.

If there had been a "final" cross at Westminster (and many people think
Big Ben is where distances are measured from) then it would be far more
compelling.

Quite a few people say that the Charing Cross (or Trafalgar Square in
fact) was chosen as a datum by the AA, as more central of a place in
London bearing in mind how it had developed by the time they started
publishing their own maps.


So the real answer is that nobody seems to know which one it should be and
one claim is no better or worse than the other.


The Milestone Hotel in Kensington has a "1.5 Miles to London" milestone
outside it. This seems to be the distance to Hyde Park Corner. It is
definitely *not* the distance to CHX, St Pauls or Westminster.

The Sainsburys in North Finchley has a milestone with "8 miles to
London" outside it. This seems to be the distance to either CHX or St
Pauls, but probably not Westminster or Hyde Park Corner.

Hang on, the answers are here. There are lots of different origins.
http://www.metadyne.co.uk/n-milestones.html


--
Basil Jet recently enjoyed listening to
Pearls Before Swine - 1971 - Beautiful Lies You Could Live In
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Old September 10th 19, 10:10 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Northern Line goes south

On 10/09/2019 20:21, Recliner wrote:

It's quoted that way for the benefit of ignorant Brits, but what they
actually measure is 0-100 km/h. Many cars are limited to 250 km/h,
described as '155 mph' for ignorant Brits.

I know the length of my British car in metres, and its weight in kg,
because that's how it was quoted when I bought it. And I'm sure the British
engineers who designed it also used metric.

I am not an ignorant *Brit* I think of myself as British, nor am I
ignorant. Using the term Brit is to me demeaning, and describing all of
us who still use miles as ignorant is very condescending. I lived in
Germany for three years when working as a contractor for the British
Army, and over there I used kilometres as the standard measurement for
distance, but in this country we still use miles, and long may it continue.

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Old September 10th 19, 10:51 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 10/09/2019 20:21, Recliner wrote:
Sammi Gray-Jones wrote:


And as you rightly point out it's now 0-62.5mph, still in miles per
hour. Not 0-100 kph.


It's quoted that way for the benefit of ignorant Brits, but what they
actually measure is 0-100 km/h. Many cars are limited to 250 km/h,
described as '155 mph' for ignorant Brits.


Excuse me, but I take exception to that. I'm British (not "a Brit"
please, I'm not American either) and I use imperial measurements. I do
so because I was brought up with them and I'm used to them. I fail to
see why I should be forced to use the metric system. Why can't both be
used..? I still struggle to understand the weather forecasts when
temperatures are only quoted in degrees C.


The country went metric decades ago. Temperatures, whether body or
atmospheric, need only be quoted in ºC. Water boils at 100º, not 212º, and
freezes at zero, not -32º. It's hot, not cold, when the temperature hits
30º. We use metric tonnes, not short or long tons. Our car engine sizes are
quoted in litres, not cubic inches. Races are run over hundred(s) of
metres, not yards.

Yes, many of us were brought up with quaint imperial measures, but it's
easy to adapt. I still remember my height in ft and inches, as that's what
we used when it was last measured (when I was a teenager), but I know my
weight in kg.

Our neighbours in Ireland had no trouble adapting, so why do some Brit[on]s
(if you insist) still think we're in the 1970?

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Old September 10th 19, 10:54 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Sammi Gray-Jones wrote:
On 10/09/2019 20:21, Recliner wrote:

It's quoted that way for the benefit of ignorant Brits, but what they
actually measure is 0-100 km/h. Many cars are limited to 250 km/h,
described as '155 mph' for ignorant Brits.

I know the length of my British car in metres, and its weight in kg,
because that's how it was quoted when I bought it. And I'm sure the British
engineers who designed it also used metric.

I am not an ignorant *Brit* I think of myself as British, nor am I
ignorant.


'British' is an adjective; what noun do you prefer?

Using the term Brit is to me demeaning, and describing all of
us who still use miles as ignorant is very condescending. I lived in
Germany for three years when working as a contractor for the British
Army, and over there I used kilometres as the standard measurement for
distance, but in this country we still use miles, and long may it continue.


Why? To what benefit?

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Old September 11th 19, 08:18 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Northern Line goes south

In message , at 21:41:10 on Tue, 10
Sep 2019, Marland remarked:
It was London Transport which recalculated its route measurements to
Kilometres back in 1972 .
Ironically they chose Ongar as the 0 datum

I think they chose Ongar because it was the furthest east.

which means their measurements start on a line that was closed and is
now no longer theirs

It's not the only disappeared datum. Road miles from London were
measured from the Post Office near St Pauls (the tube station used to be
called "Post Office") because postage was originally calculated by the
mile.

Hmm, I always thought it was where the original Charing Cross was
located.

I could see the Post Office might have used its own datum for
postage from its own main London premises for its own purposes but
the Post Office premises you mention were not constructed until the
early 19th Century and many milestones would have been put in place
before that by the Turnpike Trusts who were required to do so.


The date of the building on that site today isn't relevant. Some say the
datum is actually a little further north, at the site now occupied by
Mount Pleasant sorting office; but that doesn't change the basic
principle.

Perhaps someone else can adjudicate.

The wording on this plaque seems pretty definitive

https://ads9rca.wordpress.com/2016/1...tarting-point/


Unfortunately, the plaque doesn't say 'Measured by... whom".

And the elephant in the room is that Charing Cross was the *penultimate*
stop on the trip in question ("a little village near Westminster" in
longer versions of the story), the final destination being Westminster.

If there had been a "final" cross at Westminster (and many people think
Big Ben is where distances are measured from) then it would be far more
compelling.

Quite a few people say that the Charing Cross (or Trafalgar Square in
fact) was chosen as a datum by the AA, as more central of a place in
London bearing in mind how it had developed by the time they started
publishing their own maps.


So the real answer is that nobody seems to know which one it should be and
one claim is no better or worse than the other.


You are making the assumption that one or other is "correct" and the
other must therefore be "wrong".

And "people" do *know* things, like the Eleanor Cross was the
penultimate not final destination (and a village outside London, not
remotely the centre of London), and that the structure some distance
away outside Charing Cross station is a replica.

We also know that the General Post Office (which had a need to
understand distances) predates the majority of Turnpike Trusts by a
century.

And that the Romans (but only the Romans) used a stone near what's now
Cannon St station, and that the nearby Monument is a red herring.

Major "A" roads out of London converge towards St Paul's (even if some
have been de-trunked in recent times), not Trafalgar Square.

We also know that no-one has been able to find any records explaining
what traditional mappers regarded as the datum - some observers saying
that it was because "everyone knew", so no-one wrote it down.

But the consensus is that the AA *did* chose to consolidate on Trafalgar
Square (having previously used a bunch of gateway locations such as
Marble Arch), and hence I suggest the current meme arises from that.
--
Roland Perry


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