Electric Shapps
 

David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.

Electric Shapps
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like
the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of
time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge,
and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in
central
London.

Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline

Have you only just noticed?

nope,

but the solution "Trade in for a second hand petrol costing 4 grand" is not
entirely unreasonable [1], especially as there's still an alternative of
paying the charge on a day to day basis.

whereas

"Trade in for a (nearly new) electric at 30 grand" is, when the alternate is
not being able to drive in the zone at all [2]

ISTM the two states are miles apart.

tim


[1] I even postulated it myself

[2] Obviously if "the zone" is just the area inside the circle line then
that not too bad. But if, as you seem to be suggesting, it's inside the N/S
Circular then it most certainly is

Electric Shapps
 

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.

and what do the other half do?

tim

Electric Shapps
 

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:00:18 on Sun, 8 Sep
2019,
Recliner remarked:
So he can save on the ultra-low emission zone fee, - surely your
average
second hand petrol model achieves that

Perhaps not for long?

Are they changing the standard, as well as the coverage area.

Currently approximates to petrol 2005+, diesels 2015+.

They'll almost certainly tighten the rules at some point. It's like
the
exemption from the congestion charge, for which the rules have got
steadily
tighter.

At which point the fleet of secondhand petrol cars will consist of
higher-standard vehicles, which might well not be leap-frogged in the
egregious way Euro5 diesels were.

They won't necessarily be banned, but will have to pay some sort of
emissions tariff, as is happening now. It's probably only a matter of
time
before only ZEVs get into central London without some sort of charge,
and
the dirtiest vehicles will be banned altogether. But TfL will first have
to get its own house in order, using only zero-emissions buses in
central
London.

Oh Only Rich people allowed to drive then

That'll work well as a tabloid headline

Have you only just noticed?

nope,

but the solution "Trade in for a second hand petrol costing 4 grand" is not
entirely unreasonable [1], especially as there's still an alternative of
paying the charge on a day to day basis.

whereas

"Trade in for a (nearly new) electric at 30 grand" is, when the alternate is
not being able to drive in the zone at all [2]

ISTM the two states are miles apart.

tim


[1] I even postulated it myself

[2] Obviously if "the zone" is just the area inside the circle line then
that not too bad. But if, as you seem to be suggesting, it's inside the N/S
Circular then it most certainly is


Just to make clear, I'm not aware of any current plans to ban higher
emissions cars from the central area, but I do believe that fewer vehicles
will be exempt from the T charge as time progresses, just as fewer are
exempt from the C charge than used to be. In time, only ZEVs may be exempt
from charges in the centre of London. Eventually, only ZEVs may be allowed
into that area, but that is years away, and depends on lots more BEVs and
PHEVs being on the road.

Electric Shapps
 

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1] https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf

[2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 14:58:36 on
Mon, 9 Sep 2019, David Walters remarked:

As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.

That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Then there's the houses with more than one car, and with garages which
are either too small to put a modern car into, or are being used as
lock-ups instead.

Modern estate houses (typically link-detached) built in the last 20yrs
will also tend not to have a usable space in front of the garage,
courtesy of planners who wrongly believe that restricting parking to one
per house will restrict the number of cars people have.

It's also the case that most blocks of garages (another feature of
estates) are no supplied with power, and are sufficiently far from the
associated houses that you couldn't even run an extension lead safely.

You could add to that the many garages at the bottoms of people's
gardens, where power could be run, but at some considerable expense.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.

I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Electric Shapps
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.

I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.


Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.

But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.

When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.

Electric Shapps
 

David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf


[2] Closest to 40k in https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/


BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

Electric Shapps
 

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town
of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front
gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas
for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

As a habitual flat dweller (12% of the housing stock), I can tell you that
every time I have had a flat with a garage (which I confess is a bit short
of 50%) It has always been of the "block round the back" type with no
alternative off street parking

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf

[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/

who'd have thought that the silly litter town that was my previous place of
abode, with no Aldi or Lidl, would make it almost into the top 500.

Electric Shapps
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town
of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front
gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas
for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David
Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf


[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/


BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of increasing
ownership of electric cars is that most families will have the city
"run-around" as a second car.

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

tim

Electric Shapps
 

tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town
of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front
gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas
for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David
Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf


[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/


BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of increasing
ownership of electric cars is that most families will have the city
"run-around" as a second car.

True, or even the third car.


not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.

Electric Shapps
 

On Mon, Sep 09, 2019 at 11:16:41AM -0000, Recliner wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats?

The national average is "about half".

Even so, it means that electric vehicles not only aren't suitable for
about half the people who live there, they're also unsuitable for people
who *do* have their own drive but who have to visit people and places
that don't have a private drive.

My sister, for example, has private off road parking. But my parents
don't, and I don't, never mind any other relations and other people who
she might visit. That means that an electric vehicle would be a pain in
the arse for her even though she could have a private charger at home.

That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited.

What's a "BEV"? All these weird abbreviations confuse me.

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club"

Blessed are the pessimists, for they test their backups

Electric Shapps
 

David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Sep 09, 2019 at 11:16:41AM -0000, Recliner wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town of
40,000 that my parents live in.
Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.
That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats?

The national average is "about half".

Even so, it means that electric vehicles not only aren't suitable for
about half the people who live there, they're also unsuitable for people
who *do* have their own drive but who have to visit people and places
that don't have a private drive.

My sister, for example, has private off road parking. But my parents
don't, and I don't, never mind any other relations and other people who
she might visit. That means that an electric vehicle would be a pain in
the arse for her even though she could have a private charger at home.

That's not typical of the urban areas for which BEVs are best suited.

What's a "BEV"? All these weird abbreviations confuse me.


It's the normal abbreviation for a Battery Electric Vehicle, as opposed to
a PHEV.

Electric Shapps
 

On Mon, Sep 09, 2019 at 10:40:06PM +0100, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.

The existing electrical distribution system (it's more than just the
cables) wouldn't stand up to a street full of chargers on private land
either.

I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.

Hydrogen is an absolute bugger to store and transport and has some
rather serious safety issues. It also has a lot lower lower energy
density than petrol or diesel.

--
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

Erudite is when you make a classical allusion to a
feather. Kinky is when you use the whole chicken.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 10:32:04 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of
increasing ownership of electric cars is that most families will have
the city "run-around" as a second car.

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

I went to a "Motor Show" (at ExCel) perhaps ten years ago when electric
cars were first 'a thing', and the vast majority were concept cars about
the size of an original mini.

I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 09:42:03 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.

I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:32:04 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of
increasing ownership of electric cars is that most families will have
the city "run-around" as a second car.

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

I went to a "Motor Show" (at ExCel) perhaps ten years ago when electric
cars were first 'a thing', and the vast majority were concept cars about
the size of an original mini.

I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

Tesla can be credited for the smart idea that, as BEVs are inherently
expensive to build, they might as well be premium (big, fast and luxurious)
as well. So the Model S competes with the likes of the S-Class Mercedes,
BMW 7 Series and Lexus LX. And in the US at least that strategy has worked.
Conversely, cheap little BEVs have all flopped.

Thanks to cheaper batteries, entry level BEVs are now more affordable, with
a decent range, and Kia does an excellent, very popular one. However, not
only can you not afford it, but it's also sold out a long way ahead anyway.

https://www.whatcar.com/kia/e-niro/estate/review/n18388

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:42:03 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.

I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.

Plenty can afford it, and do, particularly on PCP. Or they buy nearly new.

Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.

Electric Shapps
 

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Recliner" wrote in message
...
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to
convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the
town
of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can
install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy
small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front
gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban
areas
for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David
Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf


[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/


BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of
emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I
wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking
where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of
increasing
ownership of electric cars is that most families will have the city
"run-around" as a second car.

True, or even the third car.


not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.

We need some figures for that

An SUV could very easily be the first car in many families

Just because it's being used for the homemaker to take kids to school,
doesn't mean it's the family's second car, especially in the central zones
where the wage earner can easily walk to the tube to get to work.

tim

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.

Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)

There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.

Theo

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 10:20:29 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.

I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.

Plenty can afford it, and do, particularly on PCP.

I'm not sure there aren't some rather onerous requirements for PCP. Like
endowment mortgages back in the day, rather too much pressure which
indicates it's better for the seller than the buyer than the seller.

Or they buy nearly new.

For a long time my preference was to buy 3yr-old ex-company cars.
Usually at the big auctions. I'm now more into 6yr-old cars with 3yr
mileage on them.

Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.

I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On 09/09/2019 23:43, Recliner wrote:

Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.

But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.

When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.

Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.

Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!

It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling station,
there is at least one such installation in London that I'm aware of,
although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is ideal; there
are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required for the grid,
they could be used to generate hydrogen. Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

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Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 10:17:44 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:32:04 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed? I'd guess that it's quite a small number.
It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

Problem of charging aside, the problem with this MO as a way of
increasing ownership of electric cars is that most families will have
the city "run-around" as a second car.

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

I went to a "Motor Show" (at ExCel) perhaps ten years ago when electric
cars were first 'a thing', and the vast majority were concept cars about
the size of an original mini.

I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

Tesla can be credited for the smart idea that, as BEVs are inherently
expensive to build, they might as well be premium (big, fast and luxurious)
as well. So the Model S competes with the likes of the S-Class Mercedes,
BMW 7 Series and Lexus LX. And in the US at least that strategy has worked.
Conversely, cheap little BEVs have all flopped.

You'd think the Guardian Readers would have lapped them up.

Thanks to cheaper batteries, entry level BEVs are now more affordable, with
a decent range, and Kia does an excellent, very popular one. However, not
only can you not afford it, but it's also sold out a long way ahead anyway.

https://www.whatcar.com/kia/e-niro/estate/review/n18388

That's not a city car, and I choose not to spend money on assets which
waste quite as fast as a brand new car.

Meanwhile, Brexiteers are apparently queuing up to buy these:

https://lh3.ggpht.com/_Tsf-t_mqSxc/T...AAAAAAjKA/CFk-
UPFzGbw/s800/1967%20Fiat%20125%20Executive%20Bertone_01.jpg
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On 10/09/2019 12:13, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:20:29 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.

Same as my dad. I never did get where he found the money, as we weren't
a rich family when I was growing up. Still aren't..!

I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!
I was extremely dis-chuffed when the local car club here decided to get
rid of the Hyundai ix35 hydrogen cars they had after three years, with
only 14k miles on them. It had taken me two of those years to persuade
them to let me have access to them, as they were technically council
pool cars.


--
Ria in Aberdeen

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Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 12:10:23 on Tue,
10 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot Ion)
start at about £5K.

Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)

There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.

The Peugeot looks interesting, but Insurance Group 28 - is that a
misprint!

It's the kind of car which would need recharging every night, like an
early 3G phone. I wonder if the secondhand prices include the charger.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 12:18:46 on Tue, 10
Sep 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.
But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.
When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to
heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.

Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.

Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!

It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling
station, there is at least one such installation in London that I'm
aware of, although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is
ideal; there are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required
for the grid, they could be used to generate hydrogen. Distribution
shouldn't be that much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of
petrol tankers, they would just need adapting.

It was going so well until that last sentence!
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:13:00 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 10:20:29 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:

not many families can afford 30 grand for a second car

It's cheaper than the SUV they probably already have as the second car.

I've got a £10k SUV as my first car. Not everyone buys new.

Plenty can afford it, and do, particularly on PCP.

I'm not sure there aren't some rather onerous requirements for PCP. Like
endowment mortgages back in the day, rather too much pressure which
indicates it's better for the seller than the buyer than the seller.

Oh, I'm quite sure they're better for the sellers than the buyers.
There are many stories of people who've agreed a deal to buy a car,
with a discount or extras thrown in, but when the salesman discovered
that they didn't want credit, the deal was withdrawn, and a much worse
price offered.


Or they buy nearly new.

For a long time my preference was to buy 3yr-old ex-company cars.
Usually at the big auctions. I'm now more into 6yr-old cars with 3yr
mileage on them.

Apart from my very first car, I've always had brand new cars, whether as
company vehicles or personal purchases.

I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

I always chose my company cars, including the model, colour, options,
etc.

I even had an Alfa Romeo once, hardly a typical company car (with good
reason). On more than one occasion both rear doors refused to open,
and my rear seat passengers had to climb over the (non-folding) front
seats. And I could often harvest a small crop of little screws on the
carpet under the dashboard.


Being 'forced' to change it after three years when perfectly happy with
it, grated a bit. One company I know churned them at six months!

Agreed.

Electric Shapps
 

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:18:46 +0100, MissRiaElaine
wrote:

On 09/09/2019 23:43, Recliner wrote:

Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.

But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars will
have to use batteries.

When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy, long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.

Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars
for short periods from an hour upwards. There are all types, from
standard petrol cars to diesel vans and electric cars such as the
Renault Zoe. There are also a few hydrogen cars, initially the LHD-only
Hyundai ix35 (which was lovely to drive) and also now some Mitsubishi
Mirai cars, which are amazing.

Fuelling and range are problems, but there is a fleet of hydrogen buses
here in the city, so the cars can use that, and there is also another
car-only fuelling station. Range is the main problem though, it's just
possible to get to Edinburgh and back on a tank-full, but I wouldn't
want to push it..! The next station south is Sheffield, so you see the
problem..!

It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling station,
there is at least one such installation in London that I'm aware of,
although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is ideal; there
are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required for the grid,
they could be used to generate hydrogen.

There are small surpluses of wind power from time to time, and
generating hydrogen is indeed a very good way to use that power. But
there's not enough for a mass switch to hydrogen power. I think some
Scottish islands export hydrogen produced from their surplus wind
power.

Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.

The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.

Electric Shapps
 

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:54:53 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:

On Mon, Sep 09, 2019 at 10:40:06PM +0100, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.
So what do the other half do..? We live in a flat with only on-street
parking available. To rip up the streets to install kerbside charging
points would not be cost effective - the existing cabling would not
stand the load on the system of everyone in the street with a car all
coming home from work at 6pm and plugging in.

The existing electrical distribution system (it's more than just the
cables) wouldn't stand up to a street full of chargers on private land
either.

True


I've said it before, the way forward is hydrogen. It takes no longer to
fill up than a petrol car and although it may not be as economical, it
would be far easier to install pumps at existing petrol stations than
charging points everywhere.

Hydrogen is an absolute bugger to store and transport and has some
rather serious safety issues. It also has a lot lower lower energy
density than petrol or diesel.

Yes, most alternate fuels do, including batteries.

The ideal solution would be some new synthetic liquid fuel, with a
similar energy density to petrol, that could be produced and burnt
cleanly. I'm sure a lot of labs are researching such fuels, but they
won't be along for quite a while.

Electric Shapps
 

"Theo" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot
Ion)
start at about £5K.

Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)

There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.

surely a 7 year old car's going to have knackered battery

tim

Electric Shapps
 

"MissRiaElaine" wrote in message
...
On 09/09/2019 23:43, Recliner wrote:

Certainly, hydrogen is better at the consumer level: the cars are
lighter,
quicker to fill, and have more range. They also don't need so much exotic
materials as batteries do.

But the industry would need to crack the problem of producing and
distributing clean hydrogen, probably from solar or wind power, on an
industrial scale, at an affordable price. I really hope that happens, but
it's obviously not imminent. So, in the mean time, low emissions cars
will
have to use batteries.

When hydrogen does become viable, it'll probably come first to heavy,
long
distance vehicles, like trains, tracks and high performance highway cars.
Short range city cars will probably stick with batteries, but they'll get
a
lot quicker to charge than current ones.

Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire cars for
short periods from an hour upwards.

so do we

they work well if you want a car for a few hours (provided that you use
them often enough to justify the membership fee)

not quite so well for you fortnights holiday

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 12:48:26 on
Tue, 10 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:

I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

I always chose my company cars, including the model, colour, options,
etc.

Most companies have policies, which even if they aren't "this model,
whatever colour they have in stock this week", can include parameters
such as insisting on 4+ doors (so customers can be taken out to lunch in
relative comfort), specific makes, and a non-negotiable ceiling price.

I even had an Alfa Romeo once

Sometimes it's possible to play the system, so with the constraint once
of "Any Astra this garage has in stock", I got away with a red GTE.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:26:40 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 12:48:26 on
Tue, 10 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:

I was spoilt for a long time by being given brand new company cars
(never met a company prepared to buy a used car) although that often
restricts the choice to something I might not have bought with my own
money.

I always chose my company cars, including the model, colour, options,
etc.

Most companies have policies, which even if they aren't "this model,
whatever colour they have in stock this week", can include parameters
such as insisting on 4+ doors (so customers can be taken out to lunch in
relative comfort), specific makes, and a non-negotiable ceiling price.

Those policies applied early in my career, but later, the rules that I
had to follow were much more flexible for senior staff.


I even had an Alfa Romeo once

Sometimes it's possible to play the system, so with the constraint once
of "Any Astra this garage has in stock", I got away with a red GTE.

All my company cars were ordered for me, built to my spec.

Electric Shapps
 

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:40:06 +0100, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

Electric Shapps
 

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 23:32:27 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed?

It's certainly lower but then so is car ownership. Apparently 74%
of households in Islington don't have a car and I believe that number
is increasing.

It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

It's the suburbs where all the car owning households are.

Electric Shapps
 

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:57:30 +0100, David Walters
wrote:

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 23:32:27 -0000 (UTC), Recliner wrote:
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking where
a charger could be installed?

It's certainly lower but then so is car ownership. Apparently 74%
of households in Islington don't have a car and I believe that number
is increasing.

It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

It's the suburbs where all the car owning households are.

London suburbs have plenty of flats and terrace houses. And the
majority of them have at least one car.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 13:19:06 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

Here in Aberdeen, we have a local car club, where people can hire
cars for short periods from an hour upwards.

so do we

they work well if you want a car for a few hours (provided that you
use them often enough to justify the membership fee)

And as long as you want it for something fairly neat and tidy - not for
example picking up a bale of hay for the pet rabbits from the garden
centre.

I wonder, do they allow pets at all (a lot of hire cars don't).

not quite so well for you fortnights holiday

Nor (to bring in a railway theme) if the objective is to pick someone up
from the station, and the train turns out to be three hours late.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On 10/09/2019 13:04, Recliner wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:18:46 +0100, MissRiaElaine

Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.

The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.

Fair enough. But it's possible.



--
Ria in Aberdeen

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Electric Shapps
 

On 10/09/2019 13:51, David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:40:06 +0100, MissRiaElaine wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.


So give me an alternative. I've already suggested hydrogen, but that
seems to have been generally pooh-poohed. According to our wonderful (!)
government, battery-electric is the best thing since sliced bread.

--
Ria in Aberdeen

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