Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 14:15:31 on Tue, 10
Sep 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.

The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.

Fair enough. But it's possible.

To replace them, if cost was no object, yes.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 13:48:11 on
Tue, 10 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:

Most companies have policies, which even if they aren't "this model,
whatever colour they have in stock this week", can include parameters
such as insisting on 4+ doors (so customers can be taken out to lunch in
relative comfort), specific makes, and a non-negotiable ceiling price.

Those policies applied early in my career, but later, the rules that I
had to follow were much more flexible for senior staff.

Depends on the company. Some expect the senior staff to set an example
to the more junior ones, by adhering to a fairly strict policy.

I even had an Alfa Romeo once

Sometimes it's possible to play the system, so with the constraint once
of "Any Astra this garage has in stock", I got away with a red GTE.

All my company cars were ordered for me, built to my spec.

That wouldn't have worked for my Astra, because I needed it by the end
of the week.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

tim... wrote:
surely a 7 year old car's going to have knackered battery

The Leaf has a battery capacity gauge - most of the ones on sale have 11 or
12 bars (out of 12), suggesting the battery is in reasonable condition. A
few at the cheaper end have 10 bars - probably worth paying a little more to
avoid those.

Newer cars have better battery management, so the batteries last longer.
But the early gen cars are still quite usable.

Theo

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
The Peugeot looks interesting, but Insurance Group 28 - is that a
misprint!

That does appear to be the case - the same for the Mitsubishi and Citroen
versions. I'm not sure why - even a Leaf is lower. It's possible insurance
quotes will take other things beyond group into account (eg actual incident
stats).

It's the kind of car which would need recharging every night, like an
early 3G phone. I wonder if the secondhand prices include the charger.

Probably not, but a charger fitted is GBP100-200 on the grant scheme.

Theo

Electric Shapps
 

On 10/09/2019 14:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:15:31 on Tue, 10
Sep 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers,
they
would just need adapting.

Â*The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.

Fair enough. But it's possible.

To replace them, if cost was no object, yes.

And how much will it cost to rip up every street in the country to lay
new cables to handle the power required when *everybody* has an electric
car that needs charging..? Not to mention the extra generating plant.
One estimate I saw somewhere said that the UK would require the
equivalent of 20 extra nuclear power stations.

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Electric Shapps
 

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:40:06 +0100, MissRiaElaine
wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just decide to
have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

Electric Shapps
 

"MissRiaElaine" wrote in message
...
On 10/09/2019 13:51, David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:40:06 +0100, MissRiaElaine
wrote:
On 09/09/2019 14:58, David Walters wrote:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.


So give me an alternative. I've already suggested hydrogen, but that seems
to have been generally pooh-poohed. According to our wonderful (!)
government, battery-electric is the best thing since sliced bread.

That's because they've invented a world where electric car technology
follows the Laffer curve

Which it doesn't

In 5-10 years they will realise that.

tim

Electric Shapps
 

"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 23:32:27 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:
BEVs are most commonly used in urban areas, where their lack of emissions
is a clear benefit, and their short range less of a problem. So I wonder
what proportion of inner city homes have private, off-street parking
where
a charger could be installed?

It's certainly lower but then so is car ownership. Apparently 74%
of households in Islington don't have a car and I believe that number
is increasing.

It's obviously better in the suburbs, but I'd still espect a relatively
small number in London.

It's the suburbs where all the car owning households are.

Oh

so I don't see all the resident's spaces outside my window that are
currently empty all filled up at 6pm, then

tim

Electric Shapps
 

On 10/09/2019 13:14, tim... wrote:


"Theo" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot
Ion)
start at about £5K.

Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)

There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.

surely a 7 year old car's going to have knackered battery


One of the unknown quantities with electric cars, they've not really
been around long enough to establish a benchmark for battery life.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:15:31 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers,
they
would just need adapting.

The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.

Fair enough. But it's possible.

To replace them, if cost was no object, yes.

Oh come on

Lorries have a relative short lifetime

there won't be an overnight switch of fuel, so the transport vehicles can be
replaced by natural wastage

(FTAOD I'm not making any other positive contribution to this debate by
posting this message)

tim

Electric Shapps
 

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:28:10 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 13:48:11 on
Tue, 10 Sep 2019, Recliner remarked:

Most companies have policies, which even if they aren't "this model,
whatever colour they have in stock this week", can include parameters
such as insisting on 4+ doors (so customers can be taken out to lunch in
relative comfort), specific makes, and a non-negotiable ceiling price.

Those policies applied early in my career, but later, the rules that I
had to follow were much more flexible for senior staff.

Depends on the company. Some expect the senior staff to set an example
to the more junior ones, by adhering to a fairly strict policy.

True, but luckily it didn't happen with me. I knew one company where
the owner had an M3 as his company car, and used that as a reason to
stop anyone else from having anything more than the lesser 3 Series
models.


I even had an Alfa Romeo once

Sometimes it's possible to play the system, so with the constraint once
of "Any Astra this garage has in stock", I got away with a red GTE.

All my company cars were ordered for me, built to my spec.

That wouldn't have worked for my Astra, because I needed it by the end
of the week.

I sometimes had to wait months for my new BMWs to be built to my
exacting spec, but I had a perfectly good previous car in the mean
time.

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 14:41:05 on Tue, 10
Sep 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:
On 10/09/2019 14:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:15:31 on Tue, 10
Sep 2019, MissRiaElaine remarked:

Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol
tankers, they
would just need adapting.

*The tankers would need replacing, not adapting. Hydrogen needs new
high pressure tanks and all-new piping.

Fair enough. But it's possible.
To replace them, if cost was no object, yes.

And how much will it cost to rip up every street in the country to lay
new cables to handle the power required when *everybody* has an
electric car that needs charging..?

A fortune. And it's required if the penetration of electric cars exceeds
about 10% by 2030 (it will vary locally depending on what cabling
currently exists, how old it is etc etc).

Note that as a rule of thumb one car in a household will on average
double its overall electricity consumption. And it's no good suggesting
peak/offpeak because there's not much difference at the supply end these
days, and if all the houses use off-peak charging, that'll roughly
treble the load on *their* infrastructure, not merely double it.

Not to mention the extra generating plant. One estimate I saw somewhere
said that the UK would require the equivalent of 20 extra nuclear power
stations.

And a whole new set of substations.

ps I don't think hydrogen is the answer either!
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 14:48:57 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just decide
to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much bigger
than a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises. Unless the
premises supply is on overhead wires (typically rural areas), when
there's a whole other set of constraints in the overall amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 14:37:33 on Tue,
10 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

The Peugeot looks interesting, but Insurance Group 28 - is that a
misprint!

That does appear to be the case - the same for the Mitsubishi and Citroen
versions. I'm not sure why - even a Leaf is lower. It's possible insurance
quotes will take other things beyond group into account (eg actual incident
stats).

It's the kind of car which would need recharging every night, like an
early 3G phone. I wonder if the secondhand prices include the charger.

Probably not, but a charger fitted is GBP100-200 on the grant scheme.

Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

MissRiaElaine wrote:


It's quite possible to generate hydrogen locally at the filling station,
there is at least one such installation in London that I'm aware of,
although I don't recall the exact location. Solar power is ideal; there
are numerous wind turbines in this area, when not required for the grid,
they could be used to generate hydrogen.

Distribution shouldn't be that
much of a problem, we already have a large fleet of petrol tankers, they
would just need adapting.

Those last few words must be understatement the week, existing liquid fuel
tankers are just compartmentalised tanks with a reasonable amount of
airtightness to stop fuel and vapour slopping out.
A Hydrogen tanker would have to be a pressure vessel and depending if the
requirement is to carry it in liquid or compressed gas form may need
cooling or be heavily insulated as well.

It would be like trying to convert a saucepan into a pressure cooker,so
much hassle it would be better to build new.

GH

Electric Shapps
 

Graeme Wall wrote:
On 10/09/2019 13:14, tim... wrote:


"Theo" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:
I'd seriously consider something like an electric Kia Picanto, as long
as it wasn't significantly more expensive than a petrol one. Let's say
£12k.

A used ~2012 Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi i-MIEV (Citreon C-Zero, Peugeot
Ion)
start at about £5K.

Obviously whether they're suitable for you will depend on your use case.
(in particular the range of 60-100 miles means they're not ideal for long
journeys)

There's also the Renault Zoe in that price bracket, although the battery
leasing makes them less attractive unless you do a lot of miles.

surely a 7 year old car's going to have knackered battery


One of the unknown quantities with electric cars, they've not really
been around long enough to establish a benchmark for battery life.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/16/tesla-batteries-have-90-capacity-after-160000-miles-may-last-for-500000-miles/

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/defa..._point_tcs.pdf

‘Standard Installation’ means an installation that can be carried out at
the Site without any additional site preparation works, man hours or
additional equipment to install the Equipment and shall include, but not be
limited, to the following:
a. fitting of the Equipment on to an internal or
external, existing brick or plaster wall, or to another suitably robust
permanent structure at the Site;
b. up to 10 metres of cable, neatly clipped
to the wall(s) or run in suitable trunking fixed to the wall between the
main electricity distribution board and the Equipment;
c. fitting and testing of electrical connections and protections required;
d. an additional individual consumer unit, if required
e. installation of a Type C MCB or a Type A RCD/RCBO in an enclosure;
f. an earth rod in soft ground, if required;

(that particular instance is GBP299, only selected because it came up
recently on another newsgroup. Others are cheaper)

Theo

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:48:57 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just decide
to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much bigger
than a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises. Unless the
premises supply is on overhead wires (typically rural areas), when
there's a whole other set of constraints in the overall amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.

The future for other than residential trickle charging top-ups is likely to
be fast chargers at filling stations. They will, of course, need a high
power grid connection, but that's simpler than rewiring the entire local
electricity supply grid, or setting up a whole hydrogen supply chain.

The new Taycan (and, no, Roland, it's not aimed at you) represents the
current state of the art:
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/taycan/charging-18558.html

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 17:12:04 on Tue,
10 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/defa..._point_tcs.pdf

‘Standard Installation’ means an installation that can be carried out at
the Site without any additional site preparation works, man hours or
additional equipment to install the Equipment and shall include, but not be
limited, to the following:
a. fitting of the Equipment on to an internal or
external, existing brick or plaster wall, or to another suitably robust
permanent structure at the Site;
b. up to 10 metres of cable, neatly clipped
to the wall(s) or run in suitable trunking fixed to the wall between the
main electricity distribution board and the Equipment;
c. fitting and testing of electrical connections and protections required;
d. an additional individual consumer unit, if required
e. installation of a Type C MCB or a Type A RCD/RCBO in an enclosure;
f. an earth rod in soft ground, if required;

(that particular instance is GBP299, only selected because it came up
recently on another newsgroup. Others are cheaper)

No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:12:04 on Tue,
10 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/defa..._point_tcs.pdf

‘Standard Installation’ means an installation that can be carried out at
the Site without any additional site preparation works, man hours or
additional equipment to install the Equipment and shall include, but not be
limited, to the following:
a. fitting of the Equipment on to an internal or
external, existing brick or plaster wall, or to another suitably robust
permanent structure at the Site;
b. up to 10 metres of cable, neatly clipped
to the wall(s) or run in suitable trunking fixed to the wall between the
main electricity distribution board and the Equipment;
c. fitting and testing of electrical connections and protections required;
d. an additional individual consumer unit, if required
e. installation of a Type C MCB or a Type A RCD/RCBO in an enclosure;
f. an earth rod in soft ground, if required;

(that particular instance is GBP299, only selected because it came up
recently on another newsgroup. Others are cheaper)

No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).

And I think you're typical of most garage owners. In any case, many modern
cars are simply too wide to fit comfortably in a traditional British
garage.

But, of course, if you have an integral garage, you probably have space to
park a BEV and somewhere to mount a charger box.

Electric Shapps
 

On 10/09/2019 19:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:12:04 on Tue,
10 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/defa..._point_tcs.pdf

‘StandardÂ* Installation’ means an installation that can be carried out at
the Site without any additional site preparation works, man hours or
additional equipment to install the Equipment and shall include, but
not be
limited, to the following:
a. fitting of the Equipment on to an internal or
external, existing brick or plaster wall, or to another suitably robust
permanent structure at the Site;
b. up to 10 metres of cable, neatly clipped
to the wall(s) or run in suitable trunking fixed to the wall between the
main electricity distribution board and the Equipment;
c. fitting and testing of electrical connections and protections
required;
d. an additional individual consumer unit, if required
e. installation of a Type C MCB or a Type A RCD/RCBO in an enclosure;
f. an earth rod in soft ground, if required;

(that particular instance is GBP299, only selected because it came up
recently on another newsgroup.Â* Others are cheaper)

No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).

The last house I lived in had a garage that was too small to hold
anything bigger than an original-style Mini. I certainly had no chance
of getting the Volvo 440 I had at the time in it..!

--
Ria in Aberdeen

[Send address is invalid, use sipsoup at gmail dot com to reply direct]

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).

In that case, mount the charger box on the house near where you'd park the
car. If you're not storing the car in or near the garage, there's no
dependency on supplying power to the garage. The charger is waterproof and
it's intended to go outside.

Theo

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 19:16:21 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:
Does that include the wiring from the distribution box to the garage?

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/defa..._point_tcs.pdf

‘Standard Installation’ means an installation that can be carried out at
the Site without any additional site preparation works, man hours or
additional equipment to install the Equipment and shall include, but not be
limited, to the following:
a. fitting of the Equipment on to an internal or
external, existing brick or plaster wall, or to another suitably robust
permanent structure at the Site;
b. up to 10 metres of cable, neatly clipped
to the wall(s) or run in suitable trunking fixed to the wall between the
main electricity distribution board and the Equipment;
c. fitting and testing of electrical connections and protections required;
d. an additional individual consumer unit, if required
e. installation of a Type C MCB or a Type A RCD/RCBO in an enclosure;
f. an earth rod in soft ground, if required;

(that particular instance is GBP299, only selected because it came up
recently on another newsgroup. Others are cheaper)

No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).

And I think you're typical of most garage owners. In any case, many modern
cars are simply too wide to fit comfortably in a traditional British
garage.

But, of course, if you have an integral garage, you probably have space to
park a BEV and somewhere to mount a charger box.

Not in many modern developments such as this one typical of the newer
housing being built in and around Cambridge:

https://goo.gl/maps/ZVkwF8yevgVPVWwx5

And around the corner, four garages with zero adjacent on-street parking

https://goo.gl/maps/GTQN3rtoMqsgvniv6
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 00:06:56 on Wed,
11 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).

In that case, mount the charger box on the house near where you'd park the
car. If you're not storing the car in or near the garage, there's no
dependency on supplying power to the garage. The charger is waterproof and
it's intended to go outside.

That assumes the available parking is adjacent to one's own home, rather
than someone else's.

The parking here https://goo.gl/maps/hnfKpHB6kdKyLPpy6 for example is
one garage/drive for the adjacent two-storey house, and another for its
terraced 3-storey neighbour.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On 11/09/2019 00:06, Theo wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
No good for about half the houses-with-garages I've owned over the
years, then. Only works for an integral garage, not most detached ones.
Not that I've ever used an integral garage to store a car in (rather
than using it as a lockup).

In that case, mount the charger box on the house near where you'd park the
car. If you're not storing the car in or near the garage, there's no
dependency on supplying power to the garage. The charger is waterproof and
it's intended to go outside.


The people I bought my current house form had a Leaf. The garage is
separate from the house so they had the charger mounted on the wall of
the house, right next to the meter cupboard, so minimal extra cabling
needed. I don't think the Leaf would have got through the garage door
anyway!


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:16:21 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:
And I think you're typical of most garage owners. In any case, many modern
cars are simply too wide to fit comfortably in a traditional British
garage.

But, of course, if you have an integral garage, you probably have space to
park a BEV and somewhere to mount a charger box.

Not in many modern developments such as this one typical of the newer
housing being built in and around Cambridge:

https://goo.gl/maps/ZVkwF8yevgVPVWwx5

Those garages aren't fit for purpose, because you couldn't fit a modern car
in them, and presumably the owners don't get anywhere else to put one.
They're essentially covered bike-and-junk shelters.

Other developments at least admit that cars are parked outside these days:
https://goo.gl/maps/bpbaVTgDTCAJKpNA6
and charging here would be fine.
(although I don't know if there's a covenant about putting extra stuff on
the front of your house)

Theo

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 10:38:07 on Wed,
11 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 19:16:21 on Tue, 10 Sep
2019, Recliner remarked:
And I think you're typical of most garage owners. In any case, many modern
cars are simply too wide to fit comfortably in a traditional British
garage.

But, of course, if you have an integral garage, you probably have space to
park a BEV and somewhere to mount a charger box.

Not in many modern developments such as this one typical of the newer
housing being built in and around Cambridge:

https://goo.gl/maps/ZVkwF8yevgVPVWwx5

Those garages aren't fit for purpose, because you couldn't fit a modern car
in them, and presumably the owners don't get anywhere else to put one.
They're essentially covered bike-and-junk shelters.

But we are where we are. And while those garages will be counted in the
stats being bandied about "40% have garages", I tend to agree they don't
in practice facilitate the charging of electric vehicles at all.

I remember going to view a 1930's house a few years ago and the estate
agent was driving an Audi TT, which he had parked on the drive outside
the garage. It was obvious at a glance that the car was wider than the
garage doors, let alone had it just fitted there being any prospect of
opening the car door.

Other developments at least admit that cars are parked outside these days:
https://goo.gl/maps/bpbaVTgDTCAJKpNA6
and charging here would be fine.

You wouldn't get much more than a Smart Car there, without obstructing
the pavement.

(although I don't know if there's a covenant about putting extra stuff on
the front of your house)

I've only seen covenants about satellite dishes, but if people invent
suitably ugly charging points, developers might catch on and start
banning them too.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:26:48 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town
of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front
gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas
for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

As a habitual flat dweller (12% of the housing stock), I can tell you that
every time I have had a flat with a garage (which I confess is a bit short
of 50%) It has always been of the "block round the back" type with no
alternative off street parking

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf

[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/

who'd have thought that the silly litter town that was my previous place of
abode, with no Aldi or Lidl, would make it almost into the top 500.

If you're talking about Bishop's Stortford it's had an Aldi for
several years. By the back entrance to the station.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Electric Shapps
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:38:07 on Wed,
11 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZVkwF8yevgVPVWwx5

Those garages aren't fit for purpose, because you couldn't fit a modern car
in them, and presumably the owners don't get anywhere else to put one.
They're essentially covered bike-and-junk shelters.

But we are where we are. And while those garages will be counted in the
stats being bandied about "40% have garages", I tend to agree they don't
in practice facilitate the charging of electric vehicles at all.

Those houses have no parking facility, for almost any kind of modern car.
The owners have to resort to parking their car on street, just like those in
Victoria terraces do. Their position is actually worse than a
Victorian-terrace-resident, since streets of terraces often have space for
much on-street parking.

This is nothing to do with electric cars as such - these houses are not
designed for cars at all (even if they claim otherwise).

Other developments at least admit that cars are parked outside these days:
https://goo.gl/maps/bpbaVTgDTCAJKpNA6
and charging here would be fine.

You wouldn't get much more than a Smart Car there, without obstructing
the pavement.

I think the Streetview car's lens is foreshortening the space, but you're
right it looks about 3-3.5m - supermini kind of size.

(although I don't know if there's a covenant about putting extra stuff on
the front of your house)

I've only seen covenants about satellite dishes, but if people invent
suitably ugly charging points, developers might catch on and start
banning them too.

More of the 'you can't stick anything on the front of your house and the
door has to be grey' kind of covenants.

Theo

Electric Shapps
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:48:57 on Tue, 10 Sep 2019,
tim... remarked:
There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just decide to
have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much bigger than
a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises. Unless the premises
supply is on overhead wires (typically rural areas), when there's a whole
other set of constraints in the overall amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.

not where I live they don't :-)

But it isn't important

The issue is one of finding the money to pay for it

not which tier of government actually digs up the pevement.

and even if it's funded by commercial organisations recouping their
expenditure from pay per use, they have to have the certainty that HMG has
set a level playing field for them to work on

tim

Electric Shapps
 

"Trolleybus" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:26:48 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"David Walters" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:16:41 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
wrote:
David Walters wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 09:42:48 +0100, David Cantrell
wrote:
As I noted the last time people here were stupidly trying to convince
people that electric vehicles were ready for use by real people, the
internet says that there are two public charging stations in the town
of
40,000 that my parents live in.

Around half the people in that town have private drives so can install
a private charger like Grant Shapps.


That sounds like quite a high proportion. Presumably it's a leafy small
town with most houses detached or semi-detached with large front
gardens,
and few terrace houses or flats? That's not typical of the urban areas
for
which BEVs are best suited.

In England in 2010 40% of dwellings had use of a garage and 26% had
other off street parking[1]. I am assuming that those with garages have
a car sized bit of drive in front on which they can park their car even
if they don't put it in the car. I'm sure there are exceptions but we
can loose a lot before we drop 16%.

As a habitual flat dweller (12% of the housing stock), I can tell you that
every time I have had a flat with a garage (which I confess is a bit short
of 50%) It has always been of the "block round the back" type with no
alternative off street parking

Examples of towns with a population of 40,000, as cited by David
Cantrell,
include Bishop's Stortford[2]. A very unscientific look at the aerial
images of the town suggests to me that more than half the homes have
off street parking.

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

[1]
https://assets.publishing.service.go...48/2173483.pdf

[2] Closest to 40k in
https://www.thegeographist.com/uk-ci...pulation-1000/

who'd have thought that the silly litter town that was my previous place
of
abode, with no Aldi or Lidl, would make it almost into the top 500.

If you're talking about Bishop's Stortford

nope

that was the PPs selection

My "village" was further down the list

tim

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 12:06:22 on Wed,
11 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:38:07 on Wed,
11 Sep 2019, Theo remarked:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZVkwF8yevgVPVWwx5

Those garages aren't fit for purpose, because you couldn't fit a modern car
in them, and presumably the owners don't get anywhere else to put one.
They're essentially covered bike-and-junk shelters.

But we are where we are. And while those garages will be counted in the
stats being bandied about "40% have garages", I tend to agree they don't
in practice facilitate the charging of electric vehicles at all.

Those houses have no parking facility, for almost any kind of modern car.
The owners have to resort to parking their car on street, just like those in
Victoria terraces do. Their position is actually worse than a
Victorian-terrace-resident, since streets of terraces often have space for
much on-street parking.

This isn't a new phenomenon, Cambourne (which you can only realistically
access by car) restricted on-premises parking which simply resulted in
cares parked in silly places on the streets.

This is nothing to do with electric cars as such - these houses are not
designed for cars at all (even if they claim otherwise).

The claim we need to be interested in is that 40% of houses have
garages, and are therefore suitable for hosting chargers and electric
cars. The 40% figure ignores the fact that $foo% of those "garages" are
entirely unsuitable for that task.

Other developments at least admit that cars are parked outside these days:
https://goo.gl/maps/bpbaVTgDTCAJKpNA6
and charging here would be fine.

You wouldn't get much more than a Smart Car there, without obstructing
the pavement.

I think the Streetview car's lens is foreshortening the space, but you're
right it looks about 3-3.5m - supermini kind of size.

If you look at the boundary wall it's about 40 bricks on their side,
which is 13ft. That would make the paving slabs of which there are 6.5,
2ft each. A standard size. So 4.1m, which is enough for a Fiesta but not
a Focus. A Nissan Leaf is 4.5m

(although I don't know if there's a covenant about putting extra stuff on
the front of your house)

I've only seen covenants about satellite dishes, but if people invent
suitably ugly charging points, developers might catch on and start
banning them too.

More of the 'you can't stick anything on the front of your house and the
door has to be grey' kind of covenants.

I've seen door colour restrictions in conservation areas, but nothing as
generic as "anything on front".
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 04:14:34PM -0000, Recliner wrote:

The future for other than residential trickle charging top-ups is likely to
be fast chargers at filling stations. They will, of course, need a high
power grid connection, but that's simpler than rewiring the entire local
electricity supply grid, or setting up a whole hydrogen supply chain.

The new Taycan (and, no, Roland, it's not aimed at you) represents the
current state of the art:
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/taycan/charging-18558.html

22 minutes is *way* too slow for filling stations. But it's getting
there. We need less than an order of magnitude improvement.

--
David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders"

Arbeit macht Alkoholiker

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at 12:22:29 on Wed, 11 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just
decide to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much bigger
than a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises. Unless
the premises supply is on overhead wires (typically rural areas),
when there's a whole other set of constraints in the overall amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.

not where I live they don't :-)

Unitary Authority?

--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On 11/09/2019 13:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:22:29 on Wed, 11 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car, they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just
decide to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much bigger
thanÂ* a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises. Unless
the premisesÂ* supply is on overhead wires (typically rural areas),
when there's a wholeÂ* other set of constraints in the overall amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.

not where I live they don't :-)

Unitary Authority?


or London Borough, City of London or Westminster, TfL, Highways England, ...

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at
14:11:32 on Wed, 11 Sep 2019, Robin remarked:
On 11/09/2019 13:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:22:29 on Wed, 11 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car,
they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just
decide to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much
bigger than* a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises.
Unless the premises* supply is on overhead wires (typically rural
areas), when there's a whole* other set of constraints in the overall amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.

not where I live they don't :-)

Unitary Authority?

or London Borough, City of London or Westminster,

If those are equivalent in the distribution of civic responsibilities to
a unitary authority, then they come into the same basket.

TfL, Highways England, ...

Not sure what housing estates either of those will be lighting.
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

On 11/09/2019 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
14:11:32 on Wed, 11 Sep 2019, Robin remarked:
On 11/09/2019 13:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:22:29 on Wed, 11 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car,
they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population
could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just
decide to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much
biggerÂ* thanÂ* a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to
premises. UnlessÂ* the premisesÂ* supply is on overhead wires
(typically rural areas),Â* when there's a wholeÂ* other set of
constraints in the overall amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.

not where I live they don't :-)

Â*Unitary Authority?

or London Borough, City of London or Westminster,

If those are equivalent in the distribution of civic responsibilities to
a unitary authority, then they come into the same basket.

TfL, Highways England, ...

Not sure what housing estates either of those will be lighting.

Ribbon developments?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Electric Shapps
 

On 11/09/2019 14:29, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
14:11:32 on Wed, 11 Sep 2019, Robin remarked:
On 11/09/2019 13:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:22:29 on Wed, 11 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car,
they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population
could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just
decide to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much
biggerÂ* thanÂ* a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to
premises. UnlessÂ* the premisesÂ* supply is on overhead wires
(typically rural areas),Â* when there's a wholeÂ* other set of
constraints in the overall amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.

not where I live they don't :-)

Â*Unitary Authority?

or London Borough, City of London or Westminster,

If those are equivalent in the distribution of civic responsibilities to
a unitary authority, then they come into the same basket.

I forgot the law that when Roland Perry uses a word it means just what
he chooses it to mean — neither more nor less

GLA? Pah! Fake news!!



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Electric Shapps
 

In message , at
16:09:51 on Wed, 11 Sep 2019, Robin remarked:
County Councils provide the street lighting.

not where I live they don't :-)

Â*Unitary Authority?

or London Borough, City of London or Westminster,

If those are equivalent in the distribution of civic
responsibilities to a unitary authority, then they come into the same
basket.

I forgot the law that when Roland Perry uses a word it means just what
he chooses it to mean — neither more nor less

GLA? Pah! Fake news!!

Odd how you complain when I agree with you (I assume you *are* saying
that London Boroughs and City of London/Westminster are the highways
authorities in their bits of the world).
--
Roland Perry

Electric Shapps
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 14:11:32
on Wed, 11 Sep 2019, Robin remarked:
On 11/09/2019 13:51, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:22:29 on Wed, 11 Sep
2019, tim... remarked:

There are lots of people who can't easily have an electric car,
they
include my parents who live in a street of Victorian terraces with
narrow pavement. However I think more than half the population
could
charge at home.

So what do the other half do..?

Something else. There doesn't need to be one solution for everyone.

but the solution isn't in the hands of individual - I can't just
decide to have a charge point connected to the local street lamppost

No-one can because the street lights are on circuits not much bigger
than a 13A ring main, Separate from the supply to premises. Unless
the premises supply is on overhead wires (typically rural areas),
when there's a whole other set of constraints in the overall
amperage.

HMG has to facilitate it (even if they don't directly provide it)

County Councils provide the street lighting.

not where I live they don't :-)

Unitary Authority?

or London Borough, City of London or Westminster,

If those are equivalent in the distribution of civic responsibilities to a
unitary authority, then they come into the same basket.

weird isn't it

London Boroughs are technically different to Unitaries but actually
identical

I suppose more things have been given to the Mayor to look after, but I
don't think that was the case when they were first set up