On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:06:54 +0000
Basil Jet wrote:
On 14/12/2020 08:56, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:50:13 +0000
" wrote:
On 12/12/2020 14:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
Shouldn't they have done that before ordering the new trains?

When the New York City Subway started commissioning and testing what was
then the brand new R-38 in the 60s, they realised that there was loading
no gauge on some of the tighter curves, particularly on the Fulton
Street Line.

This prompted the works to allow gauge clearance as well as removing
some of the walkways around towers (signal boxes).

IIRC something similar happened when the 73 stock arrived on the Piccadilly
line. The new cars were longer and so the throw was greater and the tunnels
linings around south ken had to be "shaved".


The 2014 French example is the biggest I'm aware of.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27497727

Oops. Also it seems I'm rather out of date on French railways. When did SNCF
become a train operator only?

On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 23:56:48 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:06:54 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 14/12/2020 08:56, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:50:13 +0000
" wrote:
On 12/12/2020 14:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
Shouldn't they have done that before ordering the new trains?

When the New York City Subway started commissioning and testing what was
then the brand new R-38 in the 60s, they realised that there was loading
no gauge on some of the tighter curves, particularly on the Fulton
Street Line.

This prompted the works to allow gauge clearance as well as removing
some of the walkways around towers (signal boxes).

IIRC something similar happened when the 73 stock arrived on the Piccadilly
line. The new cars were longer and so the throw was greater and the tunnels
linings around south ken had to be "shaved".

IIRC vertical curves rather than horizontal or was that the Central
Line ? Gauging runs at low speed hadn't sufficiently imitated normal
running conditions.

Don't know TBH. I do know the 2009 stock on the victoria line is too wide
for other tube lines, though I suspect that is more due to profile than actual
max width. They're definately more slab sided than other stock.

wrote:
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:06:54 +0000
Basil Jet wrote:
On 14/12/2020 08:56, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:50:13 +0000
" wrote:
On 12/12/2020 14:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
Shouldn't they have done that before ordering the new trains?

When the New York City Subway started commissioning and testing what was
then the brand new R-38 in the 60s, they realised that there was loading
no gauge on some of the tighter curves, particularly on the Fulton
Street Line.

This prompted the works to allow gauge clearance as well as removing
some of the walkways around towers (signal boxes).

IIRC something similar happened when the 73 stock arrived on the Piccadilly
line. The new cars were longer and so the throw was greater and the tunnels
linings around south ken had to be "shaved".


The 2014 French example is the biggest I'm aware of.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27497727

Oops. Also it seems I'm rather out of date on French railways. When did SNCF
become a train operator only?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Infra

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 08:57:41 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Oops. Also it seems I'm rather out of date on French railways. When did SNCF
become a train operator only?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Infra

There's a surprise - more interference from the EU in things it has no
business being concerned with.

wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 08:57:41 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Oops. Also it seems I'm rather out of date on French railways. When did SNCF
become a train operator only?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Infra

There's a surprise - more interference from the EU in things it has no
business being concerned with.

It was the EU taking its lead from the UK, in an effort to encourage open
access and international train operators. The aim is to deliver a better,
cheaper service to customers through competition and innovation. It's
worked in quite a few countries, but the old state monopolies, particularly
DB and SNCF, work hard to block it.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 09:36:08 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 08:57:41 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner wrote:
wrote:
Oops. Also it seems I'm rather out of date on French railways. When did
SNCF
become a train operator only?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Infra

There's a surprise - more interference from the EU in things it has no
business being concerned with.

It was the EU taking its lead from the UK, in an effort to encourage open
access and international train operators. The aim is to deliver a better,

The less said of the mess John Majors government made of the railways the
better.

cheaper service to customers through competition and innovation. It's
worked in quite a few countries, but the old state monopolies, particularly
DB and SNCF, work hard to block it.

Obviously its impossible to know what state BR would be in today if it had
continued but been given the same level of funding as the current system, but
I suspect it wouldn't have been much different plus there's a good chance we'd
have more R&D in this country.

wrote:
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:06:54 +0000
Basil Jet wrote:
On 14/12/2020 08:56, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:50:13 +0000
" wrote:
On 12/12/2020 14:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
Shouldn't they have done that before ordering the new trains?

When the New York City Subway started commissioning and testing what was
then the brand new R-38 in the 60s, they realised that there was loading
no gauge on some of the tighter curves, particularly on the Fulton
Street Line.

This prompted the works to allow gauge clearance as well as removing
some of the walkways around towers (signal boxes).

IIRC something similar happened when the 73 stock arrived on the Piccadilly
line. The new cars were longer and so the throw was greater and the tunnels
linings around south ken had to be "shaved".


The 2014 French example is the biggest I'm aware of.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27497727

Oops. Also it seems I'm rather out of date on French railways. When did SNCF
become a train operator only?



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Réseau_Ferré_de_France

quote

Réseau ferré de France (RFF, French: French Rail Network) was a French
company which owned and maintained the French national railway network from
1997 to 2014. The company was formed with the rail assets of SNCF in 1997.
Afterwards, the trains were operated by the SNCF, the national railway
company, but due to European Union Directive 91/440, the Government of
France was required to separate train operations from the railway
infrastructure. On 1 January 2015, RFF became SNCF Réseau, the operational
assets of SNCF became SNCF Mobilités, and both groups were placed under the
control of SNCF.[1]

/quote

wrote:
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 23:56:48 +0000
Charles Ellson wrote:
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:06:54 +0000, Basil Jet
wrote:

On 14/12/2020 08:56, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:50:13 +0000
" wrote:
On 12/12/2020 14:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
Shouldn't they have done that before ordering the new trains?

When the New York City Subway started commissioning and testing what was
then the brand new R-38 in the 60s, they realised that there was loading
no gauge on some of the tighter curves, particularly on the Fulton
Street Line.

This prompted the works to allow gauge clearance as well as removing
some of the walkways around towers (signal boxes).

IIRC something similar happened when the 73 stock arrived on the Piccadilly
line. The new cars were longer and so the throw was greater and the tunnels
linings around south ken had to be "shaved".

IIRC vertical curves rather than horizontal or was that the Central
Line ? Gauging runs at low speed hadn't sufficiently imitated normal
running conditions.

Don't know TBH. I do know the 2009 stock on the victoria line is too wide
for other tube lines, though I suspect that is more due to profile than actual
max width. They're definately more slab sided than other stock.



1992 stock are also very flat-sided, though the 2009 stock seems to have
higher 'shoulders' IYSWIM.


Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:35:52 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
wrote:
Don't know TBH. I do know the 2009 stock on the victoria line is too wide
for other tube lines, though I suspect that is more due to profile than
actual
max width. They're definately more slab sided than other stock.



1992 stock are also very flat-sided, though the 2009 stock seems to have
higher 'shoulders' IYSWIM.

Yes they do which makes standing next to the door much more comfortable than
in other tube stocks as you're not hunched over like quasimodo. I imagine
that extra shoulder width on curves is the issue.

wrote:
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:06:54 +0000
Basil Jet wrote:
On 14/12/2020 08:56, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 21:50:13 +0000
" wrote:
On 12/12/2020 14:05, Graeme Wall wrote:
Shouldn't they have done that before ordering the new trains?

When the New York City Subway started commissioning and testing what was
then the brand new R-38 in the 60s, they realised that there was loading
no gauge on some of the tighter curves, particularly on the Fulton
Street Line.

This prompted the works to allow gauge clearance as well as removing
some of the walkways around towers (signal boxes).

IIRC something similar happened when the 73 stock arrived on the Piccadilly
line. The new cars were longer and so the throw was greater and the tunnels
linings around south ken had to be "shaved".


The 2014 French example is the biggest I'm aware of.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27497727

Oops. Also it seems I'm rather out of date on French railways. When did SNCF
become a train operator only?

The EU mandated separation of infrastructure from train operation,
following the pattern established in the UK by privatisation.

Of course, the UK never had any influence in the EU...

--
Jeremy Double