Hi everyone

My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.

He bought a ticket from Harpenden to London with a Young Persons Discount
railcard. His Young persons had expired a couple of days ago. Not sure if
he realised if it had or not.

Two men in suits with Thameslink ID's (Undercover RPI's) checked tickets,
and said his ticket was invalid as YP was out of date. Would this
constitute fare evasion / another offence ?

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to court.

Any advice on the penalties etc ?

I will confirm all these points when I speak to my colleague.

"Zac" wrote in message
...
Hi everyone

My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure
if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.

He bought a ticket from Harpenden to London with a Young Persons Discount
railcard. His Young persons had expired a couple of days ago. Not sure
if
he realised if it had or not.

Two men in suits with Thameslink ID's (Undercover RPI's) checked tickets,
and said his ticket was invalid as YP was out of date. Would this
constitute fare evasion / another offence ?

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to
court.

Any advice on the penalties etc ?

I will confirm all these points when I speak to my colleague.


Surely whoever sold him the ticket is at fault for not spotting the out of
date railcard.

My mate got apprehended by Fare Evasion officers this morning. Not sure
if
all the info is right as he is not at work yet.

He bought a ticket from Harpenden to London with a Young Persons
Discount
railcard. His Young persons had expired a couple of days ago. Not sure
if
he realised if it had or not.

Two men in suits with Thameslink ID's (Undercover RPI's) checked
tickets,
and said his ticket was invalid as YP was out of date. Would this
constitute fare evasion / another offence ?

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room
where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to
court.

Any advice on the penalties etc ?

I will confirm all these points when I speak to my colleague.


Surely whoever sold him the ticket is at fault for not spotting the out of
date railcard.

Ticket was from a machine

"Zac" wrote in message
...


Ticket was from a machine


Pity

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:38:43 +0000 (UTC), "Zac"
wrote:

He was chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room where
they checked given name and address with the police, full questioning,
confiscation of tickets.
Then issued a document to say fine will be £40 - £1000 and will receive
letter in the next 3 weeks. If he wants to contest it, it will go to court.

Not again. This heavy-handedness is getting ridiculous. Surely this
(like the last one that was discussed either on here or on uk.railway)
is precisely the kind of circumstances for which the Penalty Fares
system is intended?

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

It is your responsibility to purchase the correct ticket. If you buy it from
a machine you must have a valid discount card at the time of travel. If it
expired it doesnt matter how long ago....its expired. There are a number of
criteria for a young persons railcard....perhaps your friend no longer meets
them. How many days is...'just a few'?
Its like an adult buying a child ticket....its not valid.
Is it possible your friend somehow antagonised these guys......

However....it does seem a huge over reaction to this minor infringement. But
remember they probably get lots of people saying they didnt know it just
expired etc etc all the time.
Its unusual to get the police involved unles there was something else that
made them question that deeply.
I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room', sounds very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone call?

If its his first time caught he will probably get a letter saying they
thought about it and decided its in no ones interest to prosecute. 2nd
time....they will prosecute and its up to a judge.
Conviscation of tickets? The small print says its belongs to them at all
times and if they want they can take it if you are not fulfilling the terms
of the contract you both entered into.

The penalty fare system is not for people who have purchased a ticket
without the valid cards...its for no ticket/wrong ticket situations. By
purchasing a ticket that he isn't entitled to...sorry but its classed as
fraud.

No i dont work there. I travel on it.....and frankly i'm fed up with people
free loading......if we all paid up then perhaps we could get a decent
service etc.

Mal

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:54:26 GMT, "Malcolm & Nika"
wrote:

I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room', sounds very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone call?

Is it legal for for him to be detained by RPIs (as opposed to BTP) for
longer than is necessary to verify name and address?

If its his first time caught he will probably get a letter saying they
thought about it and decided its in no ones interest to prosecute. 2nd
time....they will prosecute and its up to a judge.
Conviscation of tickets? The small print says its belongs to them at all
times and if they want they can take it if you are not fulfilling the terms
of the contract you both entered into.

The penalty fare system is not for people who have purchased a ticket
without the valid cards...its for no ticket/wrong ticket situations. By
purchasing a ticket that he isn't entitled to...sorry but its classed as
fraud.

So what would the precise offence be to justify the fine quoted?
Having the wrong ticket in a penalty fare area does not appear to be a
byelaw breach but infringement of PF regulations (of which I have not
found the details).

No i dont work there. I travel on it.....and frankly i'm fed up with people
free loading......if we all paid up then perhaps we could get a decent
service etc.

I would not classify inadvertent non-renewal of a railcard as
freeloading.
--
Peter Lawrence

"Malcolm & Nika" wrote in message
...
It is your responsibility to purchase the correct ticket. If you buy it
from
a machine you must have a valid discount card at the time of travel. If it
expired it doesnt matter how long ago....its expired. There are a number
of
criteria for a young persons railcard....perhaps your friend no longer
meets
them. How many days is...'just a few'?
Its like an adult buying a child ticket....its not valid.
Is it possible your friend somehow antagonised these guys......

However....it does seem a huge over reaction to this minor infringement.
But
remember they probably get lots of people saying they didnt know it just
expired etc etc all the time.
Its unusual to get the police involved unles there was something else that
made them question that deeply.
I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room', sounds very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone call?

If its his first time caught he will probably get a letter saying they
thought about it and decided its in no ones interest to prosecute. 2nd
time....they will prosecute and its up to a judge.
Conviscation of tickets? The small print says its belongs to them at all
times and if they want they can take it if you are not fulfilling the
terms
of the contract you both entered into.

The penalty fare system is not for people who have purchased a ticket
without the valid cards...its for no ticket/wrong ticket situations. By
purchasing a ticket that he isn't entitled to...sorry but its classed as
fraud.

No i dont work there. I travel on it.....and frankly i'm fed up with
people
free loading......if we all paid up then perhaps we could get a decent
service etc.

Mal


In order to commit fraud, you normally have to knowingly trying to deceive
someone. It does not seem to be the case that it was intentional here.

The railway companies would be better off ensuring that they have working
ticket machines, enough of them and manned booths. Perhaps even ticket
machines on trains. I have had to get on trains many times without a ticket
and try and buy one later, as the machines were out of order and the ticket
offices closed. The real freeloaders are few and far between.

Mikael

It is your responsibility to purchase the correct ticket. If you buy it
from
a machine you must have a valid discount card at the time of travel. If it
expired it doesnt matter how long ago....its expired. There are a number
of
criteria for a young persons railcard....perhaps your friend no longer
meets
them. How many days is...'just a few'?

It was 8 days.


Its like an adult buying a child ticket....its not valid.
Is it possible your friend somehow antagonised these guys......


No he didn't,

However....it does seem a huge over reaction to this minor infringement.
But
remember they probably get lots of people saying they didnt know it just
expired etc etc all the time.
Its unusual to get the police involved unles there was something else that
made them question that deeply.
I think you should clarify with your friend exactly what happened, 'He was
chucked out at Kentish Town and questioned in "Special" room',

It was actuallt there office in West Hampstead

sounds very
dramatic. Perhaps a slight exageration in the heat of an angry phone call?


No


If its his first time caught he will probably get a letter saying they
thought about it and decided its in no ones interest to prosecute. 2nd
time....they will prosecute and its up to a judge.
Conviscation of tickets? The small print says its belongs to them at all
times and if they want they can take it if you are not fulfilling the
terms
of the contract you both entered into.

The penalty fare system is not for people who have purchased a ticket
without the valid cards...its for no ticket/wrong ticket situations. By
purchasing a ticket that he isn't entitled to...sorry but its classed as
fraud.

No i dont work there. I travel on it.....and frankly i'm fed up with
people
free loading......if we all paid up then perhaps we could get a decent
service etc.

Mal

Mikael Armstrong wrote to uk.transport.london on Thu, 23 Sep 2004:

The railway companies would be better off ensuring that they have working
ticket machines, enough of them and manned booths. Perhaps even ticket
machines on trains. I have had to get on trains many times without a ticket
and try and buy one later, as the machines were out of order and the ticket
offices closed. The real freeloaders are few and far between.

They do exist! I remember in Paris, before magnetic screening was
introduced by after the "tricoteuses" had stopped punching tickets
manually, you had to introduce your ticket into a machine that punched
it, and this opened the gates. Unfortunately, it did not cancel the
ticket, so an awful lot of people just used the same ticket over and
over again, until the magnetic readers were introduced. I gather from
the French transport museum website that these punchers were only
intended to be a temporary measure, but I was there, and they looked
rather permanent to me.... I think the RATP PTB had to do a quick
rethink.

Maybe one day travelcards that allow a reduction in price will be on
smart cards that can be touched to a reader, and any allowable deduction
then made automatically, and a prompt to renew the card when it is
expiring can also be issued. Actually, I've never been asked to show my
card when my ticket is checked, although I'm always prepared to do so -
perhaps it's my honest face..... ;-)
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 11 September 2004