On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:16:04 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

there are well known problems with the Countdown system
which means that the displays cannot always be relied upon.
I understand a new system is being procured by TfL (it was
certainly in the EU OJEC process) - whether it's still in the
budget and when it will be implemented I cannot say.

I hope it will be specified better than the current system, which uses a
relatively expensive display but doesn't tell people what they really want
to know. A much more useful system could be produced a lot more cheaply. Who
can I write to about this?

I'd just go through Buses Customer Services but make sure you ask for a
reply from the Countdown team or the project team for the replacement
system.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:19:39 +0100, Marc Brett
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:16:04 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
. ..

there are well known problems with the Countdown system
which means that the displays cannot always be relied upon.
I understand a new system is being procured by TfL (it was
certainly in the EU OJEC process) - whether it's still in the
budget and when it will be implemented I cannot say.

I hope it will be specified better than the current system, which uses a
relatively expensive display but doesn't tell people what they really want
to know. A much more useful system could be produced a lot more cheaply. Who
can I write to about this?

How DOES it work anyway? I've looked for technical info on the system but have
found nothing.

Well I think it works like this.

There are roadside beacons that detect the passage of buses.
The buses have a version of an axle counter (on the rear axle) to
determine where they are between beacons and how fast they are moving.
I think, but am not sure, that the relevant info is transmitted from the
bus to the beacon via radio. The beacons then transmit to the displays
and given the position of the next stop then determine a time of
arrival. There is also some form of central data capture.

The key issues that cause problems are the axle unit on the buses - if
they fail the bus has to be taken off the road. This is not an
attractive option if the operator can otherwise run the bus so it does
not incur performance penalties for a cancelled bus. I don't know about
the relative reliability of the rest of the system but it is entirely
plausible that other aspects of the system fail thus resulting in blank
screens.

ISTR that Bob Kiley made comment on the new system being GPS based which
would remove the need for beacons and axle units. It would also be
closer to common technology used for a lot of other purposes and
therefore cheaper and easier to maintain and upgrade. We shall see.
Metroline have trialled a GPS type system for service control which
seems to have worked well.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:19:39 +0100, Marc Brett
wrote:


On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:16:04 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

there are well known problems with the Countdown system
which means that the displays cannot always be relied upon.
I understand a new system is being procured by TfL (it was
certainly in the EU OJEC process) - whether it's still in the
budget and when it will be implemented I cannot say.

I hope it will be specified better than the current system, which uses a
relatively expensive display but doesn't tell people what they really want
to know. A much more useful system could be produced a lot more cheaply. Who
can I write to about this?

How DOES it work anyway? I've looked for technical info on the system but have
found nothing.


Well I think it works like this.

There are roadside beacons that detect the passage of buses.
The buses have a version of an axle counter (on the rear axle) to
determine where they are between beacons and how fast they are moving.
I think, but am not sure, that the relevant info is transmitted from the
bus to the beacon via radio. The beacons then transmit to the displays
and given the position of the next stop then determine a time of
arrival. There is also some form of central data capture.

The key issues that cause problems are the axle unit on the buses - if
they fail the bus has to be taken off the road. This is not an
attractive option if the operator can otherwise run the bus so it does
not incur performance penalties for a cancelled bus. I don't know about
the relative reliability of the rest of the system but it is entirely
plausible that other aspects of the system fail thus resulting in blank
screens.

ISTR that Bob Kiley made comment on the new system being GPS based which
would remove the need for beacons and axle units. It would also be
closer to common technology used for a lot of other purposes and
therefore cheaper and easier to maintain and upgrade. We shall see.
Metroline have trialled a GPS type system for service control which
seems to have worked well.

Apparently (according to a friend of mine who used to post here some
years ago), the beacons run on batteries and therefore inevitably run
down. The problem is they're left in a run down state for some time so
it causes the displays to show false information as they're not getting
the right location of the bus.

This is just information given to me during general conversation, but
this combined with what you were saying above would explain either the
lack of, or false information.

I'd also like to introduce myself to the group as I'm new to it. I ended
up here from various websites about disused tube stations etc. and other
tube related sites (I've somehow got a sudden interest in this). I've
only been living in London for a month and a half, moved down from
Edinburgh and I'm staying at W. Ealing.

--
Robert Gordon
http://m33p.be

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:16:04 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:
I hope it will be specified better than the current system, which uses a
relatively expensive display but doesn't tell people what they really want
to know. A much more useful system could be produced a lot more cheaply. Who
can I write to about this?

Interesting... how you think the displays could be better?

Richard.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:52:20 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:19:39 +0100, Marc Brett
wrote:
How DOES it work anyway? I've looked for technical info on the system but have
found nothing.

Well I think it works like this.
[snip]

Not a million miles away... in fact the beacons aren't connected to
anything, they just tell the bus to report its position over the
radio. This information goes to a central system that does the
calculations and the results are sent to the signs by ISDN. This
isn't how you'd do it now, but was pretty advanced for its time.

Details at http://www.symicron.com/corepages/Press1.htm .

The key issues that cause problems are the axle unit on the buses - if
they fail the bus has to be taken off the road. This is not an
attractive option if the operator can otherwise run the bus so it does
not incur performance penalties for a cancelled bus. I don't know about
the relative reliability of the rest of the system but it is entirely
plausible that other aspects of the system fail thus resulting in blank
screens.

If the radio is not logged on, or is out of coverage, there won't be
any location information. I expect that this is another major reason
for buses to not appear on (or disappear from) the displays.

ISTR that Bob Kiley made comment on the new system being GPS based which
would remove the need for beacons and axle units. It would also be
closer to common technology used for a lot of other purposes and
therefore cheaper and easier to maintain and upgrade. We shall see.
Metroline have trialled a GPS type system for service control which
seems to have worked well.

Car navigation systems that I've seen have odometer and gyroscope
input as well as GPS, to maintain accuracy when not enough satellites
are in view - the "urban canyon" effect - I'd expect any bus system to
need these as well. Beacons are not required, though.

Richard.

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:16:04 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:
I hope it will be specified better than the current system, which uses a
relatively expensive display but doesn't tell people what they really
want
to know. A much more useful system could be produced a lot more cheaply.
Who
can I write to about this?

Interesting... how you think the displays could be better?

Firstly, nearly all buses go to the end of the line, so the destination info
is a waste of a huge number of pixels.

Secondly, as usual, nobody in the transport industry thinks about what info
passengers actually want. When I get to a bus stop, I am not interested in
the number and time of the next three or four buses - I'm interested in the
first and possibly second arrival of the route I want. Even with only one
frequent route and one infrequent route, the current system gives you a
screen full of multiple occurences of the frequent route and zilch info on
the infrequent one.

So, what I want is a small pod for each route, with the number of the route
painted on the top third of the pod, the number of minutes to the first
arrival of that route as LEDs in the middle third, and the number of minutes
to the second arrival of that route as LEDs in the bottom third. If the bus
isn't going to the normal terminus for that route, the time should flash.
The same info would be on the back of the pod. Stack a load of them next to
each other for multiple routes. This would be cheaper and more informative
than the current system.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Where are you people seeing these displays? I see none. There's a bus
shelter, a post, a place where timetables should be but often aren't, and
the bus numbers at the top of a pole.

--
Ian Tindale

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, John Rowland wrote:

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:16:04 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

I hope it will be specified better than the current system,

Interesting... how you think the displays could be better?

So, what I want is a small pod

Much more importantly, what we want is a bus version of what the LED
displays at for the tube at Leicester Square (and perhaps elsewhere) have,
namely a cartoon of a little row of the vehicles in question trundling
along after every message. I would naturally expect the cartoons to be
different for messages relating to single-decker, double-decker, bendy etc
routes.

tom

--
roger and kay payne, symmetry, piercing, archaeology, position, in ,,

--- "John Rowland" said:

Firstly, nearly all buses go to the end of the line, so the destination
info
is a waste of a huge number of pixels.


Except that not everyone is as familiar with the bus routes as you obviously
are. Imagine that you don't travel on buses very often. You've no idea
where each route goes, so it's no use you knowing that one will be along in
5 minutes if you've then got to turn to the maps, timetables etc. to find
out more about it. At least the destination would give you some idea of
where it's heading.

And since there are routes which don't always go all the way (and there were
a lot *more* of them when Countdown was first introduced) the destination
info is useful for those routes. (E.g. before the 2 was split into the 432,
I needed to know whether each 2 would be going all the way to Crystal Palace
or terminating at Norwood.)

Finally, the displays are easier to read for people who are already familiar
with that style and layout from the Underground. It saves them having to
figure out different pods. (See below.)


So, what I want is a small pod for each route, with the number of the
route painted on the top third of the pod, the number of minutes to
the first arrival of that route as LEDs in the middle third, and the
number of minutes to the second arrival of that route as LEDs in the
bottom third. .... This would be cheaper and more informative than
the current system.


Except that every time a route is changed, renumbered, diverted etc., the
pods would all have to be repainted. New pods would have to be added to
stops that gain new routes, and moved from them when routes are withdrawn.
Who's going to pay for all that work each time? It doesn't sound cheaper
than the current system.

Also, your system of different pods for different routes makes it harder to
have a quick comparison between different routes to the same destination.
(e.g. Waiting at Brixton Police Station, one glance at the display reveals
that a 322 is the first bus to Crystal Palace, a 432 is second and a 3 is
third. Under your system I'd have to find three different pods and compare
them all in order to decide whether it's worth getting the 322 or wait for a
quicker, less crowded route.)

And, how are your pods going to display information like "Oil spillage on
the South Circular. Expect delays on the following routes..." (Yes, I know
the existing system doesn't do that, but it *could*. The displays are
flexible enough.)

Ok, I admit it. I'm biased. I don't travel by bus very often. Your system
might be better for frequent bus users, especially frequent users of only
one route, but the existing displays are more useful for everyone else.

Ian Tindale wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 29 Sep 2004:

Where are you people seeing these displays? I see none. There's a bus
shelter, a post, a place where timetables should be but often aren't, and
the bus numbers at the top of a pole.

Inside the shelter at the end facing oncoming buses. Perhaps there are
none at the stops you use most regularly? There isn't one at my nearest
bus-stop heading east, but oddly, there is one heading west.
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 26 September 2004