Kevin wrote:

I really don't see this coming off. A few late over running
engineering works and you wont see the first underground trains until
after 8am. I can see London businesses tolerating that just so a few
party goers on a Friday night don't need to get a taxi home.

A "few" party goers? According to the figures on the BBC site 140,000
would use a later running tube service. 55,000 use the tube on during the
first hour of the weekend.

But typical of this country to treat the symptom and not the cause.

So your solution would be?

--
Phil Richards
Strod Green, London
Home page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Phil Richards wrote in message ET...
Kevin wrote:

I really don't see this coming off. A few late over running
engineering works and you wont see the first underground trains until
after 8am. I can see London businesses tolerating that just so a few
party goers on a Friday night don't need to get a taxi home.

A "few" party goers? According to the figures on the BBC site 140,000
would use a later running tube service. 55,000 use the tube on during the
first hour of the weekend.

But typical of this country to treat the symptom and not the cause.

So your solution would be?

And what about the second hour. My comment was for late running
engineering work, not the fact that between 5.30 and 6.30 the tube is
hardly used.
My solution is that people go home earlier.
I can see this idea causing considerable problems for workers getting
into work for Saturday morning, and travellers with early departures.
It will will boil down to has more clout. The retail industry having
problems getting workers in on Saturday morning and the hospitality
industry because it can't stay open until some unearthly hour.
Kevin

Kevin wrote:

So your solution would be?

And what about the second hour. My comment was for late running
engineering work, not the fact that between 5.30 and 6.30 the tube is
hardly used.

Late running engineering work would have to be tackled the same way as it
is at present. What we are effectively looking at is having the same
length of time in which to let the engineers do their work as they have
present. In a nutshell it's unacceptable that possessions overrun in the
first place and I would guess as with the TOCs and Network Rail there is
some sort of financial penalty. For the passenger it means they are
delayed in getting to work, just the same as when the system screws
itself up at 8am on a weekday morning for example.

My solution is that people go home earlier.

As long as the bars and clubs are open, people will stay there. They will
find a way home.

I can see this idea causing considerable problems for workers getting
into work for Saturday morning, and travellers with early departures.
It will will boil down to has more clout.

Those with early departures? OK for flights, early long distance trains
coaches etc. then they will have to take in to account these details when
arranging their journey. I've caught Eurostar from Waterloo from
where I live in North London well before the tube opens up. Easy answer,
it's called a Night Bus.

The retail industry having problems getting workers in on Saturday
morning

Of course shops have different opening hours. Most don't open until 9,
many in Central London (including where I work) don't open until 10.
Sundays it's either 10 or 11. You're really trying to say by postponing
the tube start up from 05:30-ish to 06:30-ish will prevent people from
getting to work on time?

What I keep stressing is not gain an hour at the end of the day at the
expense of an hour the next morning twice per week simply because the
engineers need access to the line for every hour of every night. Why
can't we close the system down an hour at the weekend or two later then
re-open the times they currently do the next morning? The engineers etc.
need to adapt, make their operations fit around the service pattern, not
vice-versa.

--
Phil Richards
Strod Green, London
Home page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Phil Richards wrote in message ET...
Kevin wrote:

So your solution would be?

And what about the second hour. My comment was for late running
engineering work, not the fact that between 5.30 and 6.30 the tube is
hardly used.

Late running engineering work would have to be tackled the same way as it
is at present. What we are effectively looking at is having the same
length of time in which to let the engineers do their work as they have
present. In a nutshell it's unacceptable that possessions overrun in the
first place and I would guess as with the TOCs and Network Rail there is
some sort of financial penalty. For the passenger it means they are
delayed in getting to work, just the same as when the system screws
itself up at 8am on a weekday morning for example.

Lets face it, they wont be able to prevent overruns. At least at
present, if the service starts an hour late the service does start
before the main peak. If the start is now an hour later and there is
an hour overun it will be a complete f**kup



Those with early departures? OK for flights, early long distance trains
coaches etc. then they will have to take in to account these details when
arranging their journey. I've caught Eurostar from Waterloo from
where I live in North London well before the tube opens up. Easy answer,
it's called a Night Bus.

If I need to get into London for 8am even now it is touch and go if I
will trust the tube. Absolutely zero chance if this comes in. Look out
for far more car usage.

Of course shops have different opening hours. Most don't open until 9,
many in Central London (including where I work) don't open until 10.
Sundays it's either 10 or 11. You're really trying to say by postponing
the tube start up from 05:30-ish to 06:30-ish will prevent people from
getting to work on time?

And shelf stackers, warehouse people. I bet there aren't many shop
workers arrive 5 minutes before opening time.
What I keep stressing is not gain an hour at the end of the day at the
expense of an hour the next morning twice per week simply because the
engineers need access to the line for every hour of every night. Why
can't we close the system down an hour at the weekend or two later then
re-open the times they currently do the next morning? The engineers etc.
need to adapt, make their operations fit around the service pattern, not
vice-versa.

This is all interesting but I will lay odds that the London retail
industry won't put up with it.
Kevin

Kevin wrote:

If I need to get into London for 8am even now it is touch and go if I
will trust the tube. Absolutely zero chance if this comes in. Look out
for far more car usage.

What day of the week are we talking about? Sunday, possibly you might not
be arrive in Central London from the furthest parts of the Tube. Other
days of the week should be no problem.

And shelf stackers, warehouse people. I bet there aren't many shop
workers arrive 5 minutes before opening time.

Like the transport industry staff work round the clock including nights.

This is all interesting but I will lay odds that the London retail
industry won't put up with it.

Only if the retail industry starts to loose customers through the door
and money in the till. That's not likely to happen because of the plans
to the revised tube operations. The staff employed to start early (or
finish late) will find their way in to work some way (Night buses for
example) if Tube travel is impossible. Otherwise they'll leave and seek
work elsewhere.

--
Phil Richards
Stroud Green, London
Home page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Kevin wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 24 Nov 2004:

Lets face it, they wont be able to prevent overruns. At least at
present, if the service starts an hour late the service does start
before the main peak. If the start is now an hour later and there is
an hour overun it will be a complete f**kup

But *is* there a main peak on a Saturday or Sunday morning? AIUI, this
proposal is for Friday and Saturday nights, not Sunday nights.

If I need to get into London for 8am even now it is touch and go if I
will trust the tube. Absolutely zero chance if this comes in. Look out
for far more car usage.

Again, how often do you need to be in London at 8.00 am on a Saturday or
Sunday?
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 22 November 2004

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Phil Richards wrote:

Why can't we close the system down an hour at the weekend or two later
then re-open the times they currently do the next morning? The engineers
etc. need to adapt, make their operations fit around the service
pattern, not vice-versa.

Exactly! And let's have daily status reports until the situation improves!
And why not halve the costs while they're at it!

I don't want to take time away from the engineers - i want to have a tube
network that runs safely and efficiently, and that means giving them
everything they need to do their job, which includes time.

Which said, as someone mentioned, they aren't making much use of the
saturday/sunday shutdown, so let's see if we can wring a couple of hours
out of that.

What if the overnight possessions could be done in a more focused way?
Rather than closing every line for five hours (or however long it is)
every night, close a couple of lines every night, perhaps even for a bit
longer, and stuff them to the gills with navvies to make the most of it.
That way, people could use the admirable flexibility of the tube network
to get around. A halfway house would be to close every line only from 0300
to 0500, to give the engineers time do basic stuff like walking the line,
replacing those clip things that always break, picking up bits of trains
that have fallen off, etc, and to have one night a week on each line of
closing at 2300, to do the real work. If you ignore the W&C, which closes
all sunday anyway, and the circle, which closes whenever another
subsurface line closes, there are ten lines - you could close two each
school night, and have friday and saturday nights closure-free. Would that
be enough time to do what needs to be done?

tom

--
Understand the world we're living in

(Kevin) wrote in message . com...

My solution is that people go home earlier.

Fantasic. Why not take it further... people shouldn't go out at all,
and then we wouldn't need buses or a tube and all the roads would be
empty. Problem solved!

But in all seriousness, if there is a demand for public transport late
at night (even if going out late at night isn't *your* cup of tea)
then it seems only sensible that the demand should be satisfied where
possible.

D.

"David FitzGerald" wrote in message
om...
(Kevin) wrote in message
. com...

My solution is that people go home earlier.

Fantasic. Why not take it further... people shouldn't go out at all,
and then we wouldn't need buses or a tube and all the roads would be
empty. Problem solved!

But in all seriousness, if there is a demand for public transport late
at night (even if going out late at night isn't *your* cup of tea)
then it seems only sensible that the demand should be satisfied where
possible.

There is a demand for public transport late at night and there are Night
Buses to meet this demand. In the small hours the roads are almost empty
(well maybe not Charing Cross Road) and the buses fly along. I remember
getting from Putney to King's Cross at 3am in a ridiculously quick time;
faster than the tube would have managed it.

Crossing from north to south (and equivalents) used to mean a change of bus
but since almost all of them went to Trafalgar Square that wasn't such a
problem. Out of interest now that is no longer the case are such journeys
harder or easier to make? Since moving out of London I've stopped having to
do it.

Dave

Dave Liney wrote:
"David FitzGerald" wrote in message
om...

(Kevin) wrote in message
e.com...


My solution is that people go home earlier.

Fantasic. Why not take it further... people shouldn't go out at all,
and then we wouldn't need buses or a tube and all the roads would be
empty. Problem solved!

But in all seriousness, if there is a demand for public transport late
at night (even if going out late at night isn't *your* cup of tea)
then it seems only sensible that the demand should be satisfied where
possible.


There is a demand for public transport late at night and there are Night
Buses to meet this demand. In the small hours the roads are almost empty
(well maybe not Charing Cross Road) and the buses fly along. I remember
getting from Putney to King's Cross at 3am in a ridiculously quick time;
faster than the tube would have managed it.

Crossing from north to south (and equivalents) used to mean a change of bus
but since almost all of them went to Trafalgar Square that wasn't such a
problem. Out of interest now that is no longer the case are such journeys
harder or easier to make? Since moving out of London I've stopped having to
do it.

There are more night or 24-hour routes since the congestion charge
improvements came in, so I'd say easier. It does depend how far you're
going. You have routes like the N74 (Roehampton - Putney), N28
(Wandsworth - Camden Town) and N31 (Clapham Junction - Kilburn) which
cross the centre without terminating.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London