Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , The Only
Living Boy in New Cross writes

"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...

I had a free morning on London on Tuesday so decided to bid a

farewell to

RMs on the 36.

Some observations:

As someone here commented recently, the new bus interchange at New Cross
is great for photography.


What is this "new" interchange of which you speak? I've lived in New
Cross for over five years and the interchange is just the same as
ever. I wish they would build a new one!

I was just being dim, sorry. I meant the new interchange at *Vauxhall*!

Does the 36 normally terminate at New Cross Garage, rather than the
station? The one I was on did and so did the following two.


Back when the 36 ran from Queens Park to Lewisham, half the buses
would terminate at New Cross Garage. This situation has been
formalised with the introduction of the 436. Any bus terminating at
"New Cross" will terminate at the bus garage, except for the 321 and
the P13, which for some reason terminate at the Sainsbury's.

Finally, why do people give South of the River such a hard time? I've
seen better areas than Peckham but I've seen *much* worse, too!


Don't start me on this one...I get sick of ignorant colleagues who've
never been further south than Leicester Square looking at me as if
I've survived a war zone on a daily basis!

Some people (all North Londoners) I was talking to after a walk recently
were all coming out with this sort of stuff. I was trying to get them
interested in a guided walk of Crystal Palace and the principal reason
they weren't interested was because it was so difficult to get to places
south of the river by public transport.

Oh yes... the frequent and widespread train network in South London
makes it extremely difficult to get anywhere, not to mention trams and
buses... :-)

Perhaps that's a Tube map mentality, which might be partly resolved when
the Overground Network-style maps are combined better with Tube maps.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:

Oh yes... the frequent and widespread train network in South London
makes it extremely difficult to get anywhere, not to mention trams
and
buses... :-)

Quite so - some colleagues look at me as if I've just arrived from Mars
when I tell them it takes me less than half an hour to get from home
(West Dulwich) to desk (Farringdon) - a journey which doesn't involve
the Tube at all :-P

Perhaps that's a Tube map mentality, which might be partly resolved
when
the Overground Network-style maps are combined better with Tube maps.

[Serious thread-drift now] I think this is likely to be the principal
(illusory) advantage of the ELLX, if it ever happens - i.e. not
"improved access to Central London from Crystal Palace and Croydon"
(which is clearly nonsense), but the positive effect of names like
Crystal Palace and Sydenham appearing on a Tube map for the first time.
Assuming it will be shown on Tube maps, that is.

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , The Only
Living Boy in New Cross writes

"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...

I had a free morning on London on Tuesday so decided to bid a

farewell to

RMs on the 36.

Some observations:

As someone here commented recently, the new bus interchange at New Cross
is great for photography.


What is this "new" interchange of which you speak? I've lived in New
Cross for over five years and the interchange is just the same as
ever. I wish they would build a new one!
I was just being dim, sorry. I meant the new interchange at
*Vauxhall*!

Does the 36 normally terminate at New Cross Garage, rather than the
station? The one I was on did and so did the following two.


Back when the 36 ran from Queens Park to Lewisham, half the buses
would terminate at New Cross Garage. This situation has been
formalised with the introduction of the 436. Any bus terminating at
"New Cross" will terminate at the bus garage, except for the 321 and
the P13, which for some reason terminate at the Sainsbury's.

Finally, why do people give South of the River such a hard time? I've
seen better areas than Peckham but I've seen *much* worse, too!


Don't start me on this one...I get sick of ignorant colleagues who've
never been further south than Leicester Square looking at me as if
I've survived a war zone on a daily basis!
Some people (all North Londoners) I was talking to after a walk
recently were all coming out with this sort of stuff. I was trying
to get them interested in a guided walk of Crystal Palace and the
principal reason they weren't interested was because it was so
difficult to get to places south of the river by public transport.

Oh yes... the frequent and widespread train network in South London
makes it extremely difficult to get anywhere, not to mention trams and
buses... :-)
You just but that was precisely the point that was being made to me.
No tube = no public transport.

When I mentioned the NR network, someone said that they knew of one
station where there was only a train **every half an hour**! When I
said that most of the network had far more - and in any case every 30
minutes would be considered good in some areas - I was treated to the
incredulous one-liner "but you'd need a **timetable**"!

Perhaps that's a Tube map mentality, which might be partly resolved
when the Overground Network-style maps are combined better with Tube
maps.
Indeed.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , Dave Arquati
writes

Ian Jelf wrote:

In message , The Only
Living Boy in New Cross writes

"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...

(snip)

Finally, why do people give South of the River such a hard time?
I've
seen better areas than Peckham but I've seen *much* worse, too!

Don't start me on this one...I get sick of ignorant colleagues who've
never been further south than Leicester Square looking at me as if
I've survived a war zone on a daily basis!

Some people (all North Londoners) I was talking to after a walk
recently were all coming out with this sort of stuff. I was trying
to get them interested in a guided walk of Crystal Palace and the
principal reason they weren't interested was because it was so
difficult to get to places south of the river by public transport.

Oh yes... the frequent and widespread train network in South London
makes it extremely difficult to get anywhere, not to mention trams and
buses... :-)

You just but that was precisely the point that was being made to me. No
tube = no public transport.

When I mentioned the NR network, someone said that they knew of one
station where there was only a train **every half an hour**! When I
said that most of the network had far more - and in any case every 30
minutes would be considered good in some areas - I was treated to the
incredulous one-liner "but you'd need a **timetable**"!

Shocking.

I could understand if a half-hourly service was widespread across the
network, but a quick look at the Overground Network map shows about 50
stations with 6tph or more. Perhaps you should carry around a copy to
give to these people :-)

Perhaps that's a Tube map mentality, which might be partly resolved
when the Overground Network-style maps are combined better with Tube
maps.

Indeed.

I've had a good look at some of the new "High frequency services" maps
at Tube stations now, but I'm not particularly keen on them; the
information is useful but isn't presented very clearly. I much prefer
the Overground Network map, which could be improved more easily.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
Shocking.
My reply to them, as it happens! ;-)

I could understand if a half-hourly service was widespread across the
network, but a quick look at the Overground Network map shows about 50
stations with 6tph or more. Perhaps you should carry around a copy to
give to these people :-)
They publish **timetables**?!
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:44:00 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Dave Arquati
writes
Ian Jelf wrote:

Some people (all North Londoners) I was talking to after a walk
recently were all coming out with this sort of stuff. I was trying
to get them interested in a guided walk of Crystal Palace and the
principal reason they weren't interested was because it was so
difficult to get to places south of the river by public transport.

Well it is South of the river you know. That's another universe and you
need a passport to get across those bridge things in the middle of
London.

Oh yes... the frequent and widespread train network in South London
makes it extremely difficult to get anywhere, not to mention trams and
buses... :-)
You just but that was precisely the point that was being made to me.
No tube = no public transport.

Well I clearly cannot have travelled around Central and East London on
Sunday as I did it all by bus and great fun it was too.

When I mentioned the NR network, someone said that they knew of one
station where there was only a train **every half an hour**! When I
said that most of the network had far more - and in any case every 30
minutes would be considered good in some areas - I was treated to the
incredulous one-liner "but you'd need a **timetable**"!

Yes they are another concept created by alien beings that normal people
cannot be expected to comprehend. I have often acted as an informal
alternative to both LT and BR travel enquiries and people are genuinely
surprised that you can get from A to B - whether in London or elsewhere
in the country - with relative ease by public transport.

Most people simply need reassurance and some decent information - I once
provided info for a blind friend of a friend who made it to a wedding in
Uxbridge by train and Tube and walking the last bit. She was full of
gratitude for the confident information and helpful hints that I
provided which she had been unable to access via conventional means.

Perhaps that's a Tube map mentality, which might be partly resolved
when the Overground Network-style maps are combined better with Tube
maps.
Indeed.

In part. While the Tube map is a pretty good design I find many people
cannot cope with maps of even moderate complexity and as soon as you
suggest using a bus (another alien creation) or changing between modes
(a way to certain death) then people become too scared and return to the
comfort and predictability of their cars. All this despite the certainty
that they will get lost in their cars and that the public transport
journey would probably pass without a hitch. Information provision and
the "ease of use" of public transport has a long way to go to address
these problems.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
Well I clearly cannot have travelled around Central and East London on
Sunday as I did it all by bus and great fun it was too.

When I was training as a guide I always, if there was time, travelled
around by bus as a way of improving my "feel" for London.

All my colleagues thought I was mad.

One of them once used a 24 to get from Trafalgar Square to Victoria and
came back to our lecture that evening really excited about managing to
do this so easily. (When I casually said to him "Oh the grey and green
one rather than a red one?" [1] he was truly *incredulous* that I could
have known that, too.)


[1] That dates the story, doesn't it?

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:19:12 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
Well I clearly cannot have travelled around Central and East London on
Sunday as I did it all by bus and great fun it was too.

When I was training as a guide I always, if there was time, travelled
around by bus as a way of improving my "feel" for London.

All my colleagues thought I was mad.

One of them once used a 24 to get from Trafalgar Square to Victoria and
came back to our lecture that evening really excited about managing to
do this so easily. (When I casually said to him "Oh the grey and green
one rather than a red one?" [1] he was truly *incredulous* that I could
have known that, too.)

I have the same issue with my boss. my office is at Leicester Sq - HQ is
obviously St James Park. The 24 is by far the nicest and fastest way to
travel when it is running properly. It is a battle royal to get my boss
to use the bus instead of taking two tube services. You'd almost think
that the bus was not public transport if you work for the Tube!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Ian Jelf wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 2 Feb 2005:

When I was training as a guide I always, if there was time, travelled
around by bus as a way of improving my "feel" for London.

It's surely the only way to get to know a city. We always try to work
out how to use the bus network in any strange city we visit, and then we
feel we know the place! Besides which, you see the "real" people, not
just the tourist guides (sorry, Ian!).

All my colleagues thought I was mad.

One of them once used a 24 to get from Trafalgar Square to Victoria and
came back to our lecture that evening really excited about managing to
do this so easily. (When I casually said to him "Oh the grey and green
one rather than a red one?" [1] he was truly *incredulous* that I could
have known that, too.)


[1] That dates the story, doesn't it?

It does indeed!
--
"Mrs Redboots"
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 23 January 2005 with new photos

In message , Mrs Redboots
writes
Ian Jelf wrote to uk.transport.london on Wed, 2 Feb 2005:

When I was training as a guide I always, if there was time, travelled
around by bus as a way of improving my "feel" for London.

It's surely the only way to get to know a city. We always try to work
out how to use the bus network in any strange city we visit, and then we
feel we know the place! Besides which, you see the "real" people, not
just the tourist guides (sorry, Ian!).
No offence taken at all. It's exactly how I feel!

And - quite seriously - I try always to behave with groups in as
unlike-a-tour-guide manner as possible. I try to tell people things
that *I* would find interesting about a place.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk