Solar Penguin wrote:

Trouble is, the stupid zones have been around so long that too many
people have got into the habit of thinking that they're a good thing,
even when they're clearly not -- and won't hear a word said against
them. Maybe it would have been better if TfL abandoned their zones and
came into line with the rest of the country with a point-to-point
system.

Might work fine for the tube as almost every station is gated, perhaps you
would like to put forward ideas on how a point-to-point bus fares structure
in London can be efficiently run with proper revenue protection.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Solar Penguin wrote:

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. Why can't you simply buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace
to Oxford Circus?

In all probability I could then do some shopping, wander about and decide
to end up at Piccadilly Circus before going back to Crystal Palace. A zonal
ticket will work fine, your inflexible point-to-point return ticket of
course won't.


--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I acknowledged this point but if you have any memory of the Tube prior
to zonal fares and I just about do then the old set up had arrays of
free standing single fare machine with huge signs above them saying
which stations for that fare.

Are there really no pictures of the old machines anywhere on the web?
A Google and a look at http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk didn't turn up any.

IIRC, they had the fare in huge print and the stations served by that
fare on the sloping glass top.

I did catch a few seconds of an old film, Seven Days to Noon, I think,
the other day. The hero chases the villain into the underground but has
to pause to buy a 1 1/2 d ticket!

--
Michael Parry
'The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret'
(Terry Pratchett, The Truth)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:13:19 +0000, Graham Murray
wrote:

Paul Corfield writes:

I acknowledged this point but if you have any memory of the Tube prior
to zonal fares and I just about do then the old set up had arrays of
free standing single fare machine with huge signs above them saying
which stations for that fare. If you were very lucky you had a machine
with 10 buttons on it.

Also, IIRC, there were some larger machines which had a button for
every LUL station.

Well, those existed well into the zonal fare era, until they got replaced
by the touch-screen MFMs a few years ago.

I still rather miss them

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:51:11 +0000, Phil Richards wrote:
Solar Penguin wrote:

Might work fine for the tube as almost every station is gated, perhaps you
would like to put forward ideas on how a point-to-point bus fares structure
in London can be efficiently run with proper revenue protection.

with conductors

--
u n d e r a c h i e v e r

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:10:50 +1030, (Aidan Stanger)
wrote:

Solar Penguin wrote:
Are you sure it's more expensive? I don't know about from Crystal Palace,
but from some NR stations a return ticket to Underground Zone 1 is
cheaper than a travelcard.


Form Norwood Junction (next stop on) the relative fares are

Peak Day Travel Card Peak Day Return to Zone 1 Peak Return to
London One Day Travel Card Off Peak Day Return to London.



PRAR
--
http://www.i.am/prar/
As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it. Dick Cavett
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
NB Anti-spam measures in force
- If you must email me use the Reply to address and not

Mrs Redboots wrote:

And you can't see out of a single-decker. But sat in the front seat
upstairs on a double-decker (and since those are just by the stairs,
no
problem with headroom), and in no hurry, it's a joy!

Annabel - it must have been a while since you've been on the 3 for you
to describe a long journey on it as "a joy"... (On the other hand, IMHO
the 137 is a very pleasant way to travel from this corner of London to
Oxford St!)

Dave Arquati wrote:

[snip useful and clear analysis]

All that's left are day return journeys to London terminals, which
would
unfortunately be more expensive under this system. Single would be
£2.50
from a Zone 4 station, return would be £4.70 (capped to the price of
a
Travelcard).

If we take Crystal Palace as an example, a single to Victoria would
be
£3.10 now, or a return would be £3.60. On the plus side, you get
free
bus and tube travel "thrown in". I guess it all depends what
proportion
of day-returners arriving at London terminals don't use any other
transport during the day.

However, as a YP railcard holder I can get a CDR from West Dulwich to
Victoria for around £2. Since railcards don't have any effect on zonal
fares, a comparable journey via bus 3 and Brixton will end up costing
over twice this. I wonder if they've thought about what will happen to
railcards if they go zonal?

(Incidentally, I'm all in favour of a fully integrated Verkehrsverbund
type fare structure, but it is definitely going to hit us tubeless
South Londoners the hardest...)

In article , Stephen Osborn
writes
One basic point to bear in mind is that, in general, systems can be
fair or they can be simple.
A zonal system can be simpler but full of anomalies (e.g. four stops
crossing a zonal boundary costing more than 10 stops with a single
zone) and so less fair.
A point to point system can be fairer (charging for the distance
traveled) but will be more complex.

An even more basic point you are all avoiding is defining "fair". Once
you have an agreed definition, *then* you can start arguing whether one
particular system is "fairer". But first you need to agree the
definition.

For the record, I *don't* agree that a system is unfair if A-B and A-C
ever have the same price.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article , says...
In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I acknowledged this point but if you have any memory of the Tube prior
to zonal fares and I just about do then the old set up had arrays of
free standing single fare machine with huge signs above them saying
which stations for that fare.

Are there really no pictures of the old machines anywhere on the web?
A Google and a look at http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk didn't turn up any.

IIRC, they had the fare in huge print and the stations served by that
fare on the sloping glass top.

Oh yes there is

http://makeashorterlink.com/?N3F63287A