In message
Michael Parry wrote:

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I acknowledged this point but if you have any memory of the Tube prior
to zonal fares and I just about do then the old set up had arrays of
free standing single fare machine with huge signs above them saying
which stations for that fare.

Are there really no pictures of the old machines anywhere on the web?
A Google and a look at http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk didn't turn up any.

IIRC, they had the fare in huge print and the stations served by that
fare on the sloping glass top.

That's how I remember them, the fare was in red and the machine itself was
painted blue. Fare bands were in increments of 3d (old pence). IIRC only
singles were available, no returns.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

In message , Clive D. W. Feather
writes

In article , Paul Terry
writes

Much more common is to offer two bags of veg or salad (or two almost
expired pizzas) for a reduced price. People fall for the offer but
cannot consume that much fresh food before it goes off - so they throw
away the out-of-date goods.

Rubbish. It might be a problem for single people

Rubbish. It is not a problem for anyone.

- but you don't *have* to take the 2-for-1.5 offer - but for families
you end up saving significantly.

If you have a family that can consume that much food the same day, it is
obviously a saving. Re-reading the thread would help your comprehension.

And plenty of the discounted stuff is nowhere near expiry, or can be
frozen,

You freeze lettuce, satsumas and cheese (three of today's offers) ?

Now explain 2-for-1 offers, which our Tesco does a lot of.

My neighbour, who is the international buyer for their major rival,
tells me that it is to clear over-purchasing at bargain rates - the
warehouse space then becomes more expensive than selling the goods off
at half price. Today I watched as several argon-impregnated pallet-loads
of salad were moved from warehouse to shelf - all marked to expire
tomorrow.

I can even point at items where N+1 cost *less* than N. How does this
fit your conspiracy theory?

Why on earth do you imagine I have a "conspiracy theory"? I am remarking
on sell-by dates that anyone with eyes can read.

Once you have understood that, try to extrapolate its relevance to
railway tickets.
--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:

You freeze [...] cheese ?

If it's cheddar-ish, rather than Brie-ish, then yes.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:00 +0000, John Ray wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:
Paul Corfield wrote:

Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day
Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply
buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID
card number.

I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value
for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't
publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite
pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis.

I've used both. Mobilis is useful for one-day visits, but I doubt that
most visitors to Paris are only there for one day, so for most
visitors purposes Paris Visite is probably more useful.

The card they *don't* tell the tourists about is the Carte Orange in
its weekly form.

Granted the Carte Orange is only valid from Monday to Sunday (and you
need a photo for the ID card), but the zone 1-5 Carte Orange costs EUR
30,20 against EUR 45,70 for a 5-day zone 1-5 Paris Visite.

A 3-day 1-5 Visite costs EUR 37,35, so as the weekly Carte Orange is
sold until Wednesday, a 3-day midweek visitor would be better off
buying the Carte Orange!

--
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:00 +0000, John Ray
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day
Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply
buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID
card number.

I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value
for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't
publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite
pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis.

I've never used the Paris Visite because like all such "special" tickets
it is a rip off unless you can guarantee to use all of the add on extra
discounts.

As suggested by another poster I had not considered the Carte Orange as
an option as I perhaps foolishly assumed you had to be a resident as
employers pay part of the costs of such tickets IIRC? I may need to do
some more investigation.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:00 +0000, John Ray
wrote:


Paul Corfield wrote:

Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a One Day
Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep and then simply
buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date it and write on the ID
card number.

I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good value
for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it isn't
publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the Paris Visite
pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis.


I've never used the Paris Visite because like all such "special" tickets
it is a rip off unless you can guarantee to use all of the add on extra
discounts.

As suggested by another poster I had not considered the Carte Orange as
an option as I perhaps foolishly assumed you had to be a resident as
employers pay part of the costs of such tickets IIRC? I may need to do
some more investigation.

This is true, more employers pay for travel costs in France than they do
here (not that mine did, but then that's universities for you!), but
that's nothing relevant to the Carte Orange - it's just a period
travelcard, that's all.

(I still find it quite bizarre that their period cards run on the
calendar week/month, though you get used to it - the only effect it had
on me was to not bother buying it in December and August.)

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:52:21 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:
[...]
As suggested by another poster I had not considered the Carte Orange as
an option as I perhaps foolishly assumed you had to be a resident as
employers pay part of the costs of such tickets IIRC? I may need to do
some more investigation.

My French is not wonderful and I got the details from the French
version of the RATP website (the English version unsurprisingly
doesn't mention Carte Orange), but there's no suggestion of local
residence for a Carte Orange.

The Carte Integrale (sp?) required French residence, but that's a
monthly or longer season and is paid for by bank transfer.

I suspect employers can pay for or towards RATP seasons, just as
happens in the UK with rail or PTE seasons, but I couldn't see any
"special" tickets on the website which were only for those groups.

--
Ross, a.k.a.
Prof. E. Scrooge, CT, 153 & bar, Doctor of Cynicism (U. Life)

Ross wrote:
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:53:00 +0000, John Ray wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:
Paul Corfield wrote:

Or simply purchase a Mobilis ticket which is their version of a
One Day Travelcard. You get a form of "ID" card which you keep
and then simply buy a magnetic ticket as necessary. You then date
it and write on the ID card number.

I used one of those a few years ago, but not on buses. It was good
value for the trips I made on the day, and I was surprised that it
isn't publicised to tourists (or not noticeably). They plug the
Paris Visite pass in the tourist literature, but not Mobilis.

I've used both. Mobilis is useful for one-day visits, but I doubt
that most visitors to Paris are only there for one day, so for most
visitors purposes Paris Visite is probably more useful.

For most visitors, the Carnet is more useful: 10 Metro/Bus tickets for
EUR 10.50, that's about 73p each. Unless you plan to make 6 or more
journeys in a day, it's not worth buying a Mobilis at EUR 5.30 (Zones
1,2). Paris Visite is more expensive, and is only worthwhile if the
discounts on other attractions that it offers match what you want to see
during your visit.

The card they *don't* tell the tourists about is the Carte Orange in
its weekly form.

Granted the Carte Orange is only valid from Monday to Sunday (and
you need a photo for the ID card), but the zone 1-5 Carte Orange costs
EUR 30,20 against EUR 45,70 for a 5-day zone 1-5 Paris Visite.

A 3-day 1-5 Visite costs EUR 37,35, so as the weekly Carte Orange is
sold until Wednesday, a 3-day midweek visitor would be better off
buying the Carte Orange!

.... if arriving by air to CDG. But most Eurostar tourists will need
only Zones 1-2, which is EUR 15.40 for a weekly Carte Orange or EUR
15.90 for 3 Mobilis 1-day tickets.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Aidan Stanger wrote:
Solar Penguin wrote:


--- Dave Arquati said...

Suppose you want to travel, for example, from Crystal Palace to Oxford
Circus. Why can't you simply buy a cheap day return from Crystal Palace
to Oxford Circus? Instead you *have* to buy a One Day Travelcard for
zones 1-4, which means you're also paying for the flexibility of
travelling to Morden, Mill Hill East, Waterloo, and dozens of other
places that you won't actually visit today!

You *can* buy a return between those stations, but it's more expensive
than a Travelcard, so you get a Travelcard instead.


Are you sure it's more expensive? I don't know about from Crystal Palace,
but from some NR stations a return ticket to Underground Zone 1 is
cheaper than a travelcard.

From Crystal Palace it's £3.10 CDR + £4 TfL Z1 return. The NR return
has to be less than £1.20 from Z3/4 or £2.00 from Z5/6 for a return to
be cheaper than a Travelcard (£4.70, £5.20 or £6.00 for Z1-2, Z1-4 or
Z1-6 respectively).

What about families? Rail can't possibly compete with car without some
sort of discount for groups travelling together.


Yes it can. The question is how much group discount should be provided to
attract families - or should it stick to what it's best at. And the
answer really depends on the time of day - when the trains are full,
attracting families is probably best avoided, but when there is spare
capacity, it's often worth putting on special offers in order to attract
more passengers.

Yes; I wouldn't propose family tickets for the peaks but off-peak family
travel should be encouraged as it gets people thinking about
alternatives to the car, and gets the children used to public transport.
Whether one agrees with it or not, I think one of the reasons behind
Ken's plan to give under-18s free bus use is to make sure they're
totally used to freedom of bus use rather than depending on parents for
car rides and therefore yearning to drive themselves.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Phil Richards wrote:
Solar Penguin wrote:


Trouble is, the stupid zones have been around so long that too many
people have got into the habit of thinking that they're a good thing,
even when they're clearly not -- and won't hear a word said against
them. Maybe it would have been better if TfL abandoned their zones and
came into line with the rest of the country with a point-to-point
system.


Might work fine for the tube as almost every station is gated, perhaps you
would like to put forward ideas on how a point-to-point bus fares structure
in London can be efficiently run with proper revenue protection.

(shudder)
A point-to-point bus fare system would really put me off bus use. One of
the things I really liked about buses in London when I arrived here,
versus back home, was an easy flat fare structure. (That and about
twenty times the frequency...)

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London