In message , Bob Wood
writes
In ,
Steve M typed:

....was there ever a Red Arrow route to Liverpool Street, or was the bus
just passing out of service? In fact - were there ever any other Red
Arrow routes anywhere, other than the existing 507 and 521?

500 Victoria Station - Marble Arch (rush hour) The route was longer
between the rush hours and included part of Oxford Street.

501 Waterloo Station - London Bridge Station.
502 Waterloo Station - Liverpool Street Station
503 Waterloo Station - Victoria Station.
505 Waterloo Station - Marble Arch.
506 Victoria Station - Piccadilly Circus.
507 Waterloo Station - Victoria Station.
513 Waterloo Station - London Bridge Station.

I was about to post something similar but not quite as detailed!
Thanks, Bob.

I'd just add that all the original Red Arrows were limited stop routes,
sometimes with *very* long spacings between stops. I think that the
500 ran non stop Marble Arch to Victoria but I can't verify that at the
moment. (Someone will doubtless correct me if necessary.)

I think that today's 507 and 521 serve many if not most stops;
certainly if they don't, not much is made of their having an "express"
nature.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"Bonzo" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:19:53 +0100, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

As I understand it, the Palace Gates to North Woolwich
and Richmond to Broad Street services were merged
to become Richmond to North Woolwich. The Palace
Gates branch closed a while ago, so there was
presumably a period when there was just a Dalston
Junction (or thereabouts) to North Woolwich shuttle.

NW - Stratford and Tottenham Hale, wasn't it?

Yes.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

"Sir Benjamin Nunn" wrote in message ...
"Martin Underwood" wrote in message
...

Wasn't the Broad Street underground station simply another exit from
Liverpool Street underground? I can't see any mention in Douglas Rose's
map of a separate station.


Still there, AFAIK. It's the exit from the sub-surface lines that emerges in
the street (rather than inside the Liverpool St mainline concourse) by the
Broadgate development.

There were two ancient, and long disused, lifts on the concourse at
Broad Street, at least the shafts were still there, I don't know if
the cars were still in them. No idea when they were taken out of use,
, but they looked long-dead when I first saw them, in the early '70s.

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message ...
wrote in message
oups.com...
snip

Talking of Broad Street, what happenned to the services that used to
operate into this station? I also see, from looking elsewhere that
Broad Street had an Underground station. What happenned to this?

As I understand it, the Palace Gates to North Woolwich and Richmond to Broad
Street services were merged to become Richmond to North Woolwich. The Palace
Gates branch closed a while ago, so there was presumably a period when there
was just a Dalston Junction (or thereabouts) to North Woolwich shuttle.

After Palace Gates closed, around '64 I think, the service became
Tottenham Hale - North Woolwich. Later, '80s sometime, Tottenham Hale
service became a shuttle to Stratford, in peak hours only. This was
withdrawn in 1984, and Lea Bridge station closed. North Woolwich
service was diverted to Camden Road via the line from Dalston Western
Junction to Stratford Low Level, which had been freight only since the
Broad Street - Poplar service was withdrawn in the '40s, and never
re-instated after the war. Hackney station was re-opened as Hackney
Central, though not using the original building, which still survives.
Hommerton station did not re-open until a few years later, Victoria
Park station, which was at the junction of the lines to Stratford and
Poplar, remained closed, and was replaced by the new Hackney Wick
station, further East.

The line from Victoria Park Junction to Poplar remained open for
freight, but became little used with the closure of the docks. It
finally closed to all traffic around 1984. The DLR later took over
the Southern section of this route, All Saints station is on the site
of the old North London Poplar East India Road station. A small part
of the original front wall of the station building is still there, at
least I think it is, it was last year. The Northern section of this
route, from Victoria Park Junction to where the DLR service from
Stratford joins it is abandoned; the bridge carrying it over the
Hertford Union Canal was removed long ago, but a fairly modern, large
blue-painted steel bridge which carried it over roads just south of
the junction survived for much longer, and could be seen from passing
North London Line trains to Stratford.

I remember in the 80s or 90s (after Broad Street had closed and the new
offices bult on the site) there was an occasional service from Liverpool
Street via the newly-built Graham Road curve (north of Cambridge Heath) onto
the NLL. I'm not sure whether it went to Richmond or whether it branched off
onto the WCML to go to Watford Junction.

It went to Watford junction via Primrose Hill, replacing the Broad
Street - Watford Junction service, which had also been peak hours
only. It was short-lived, and was probably being the most cancelled
service in London. Towards the end of its time it seldom seemed to
actually run. At Watford Junction there was an indicator with twenty
lamps, in a 5x4 array, for the 5 (as it was then) d.c. platforms, and
4 destinations served: Euston, Croxley Green, Elephant & Castle and
Broad Street. The indicator obviously dated from after the closure of
the line to Rickmansworth Church Street. Of these five destinations,
only Euston is still served today.

Wasn't the Broad Street underground station simply another exit from
Liverpool Street underground? I can't see any mention in Douglas Rose's map
of a separate station.

Yes.

The Diesel service from Broad Street to the Great Northern, via the
curve at Canonbury, was withdrawn at the time of the Great Northern
Surburban Electrification scheme in about '76, which also saw services
diverted from these lines diverted from Kings Cross Suburban, and
moorgate via the widened Lines, to Moorgate via the Great Northern and
City line, which had previously been a branch of the Northern line.

Broad Street had a very long decline, starting during the First World
War. It once had a service to Wolverhampton, which offered the
services of a typist! At it's peak it was one of the busyest stations
in London. It was very different towards the end. The long-closed
refreshment rooms still carried a sticker with the festival of Britain
logo on their windows until the end.

Bob Wood wrote:

In ,
Steve M typed:


....was there ever a Red Arrow route to Liverpool Street, or was the bus
just passing out of service? In fact - were there ever any other Red
Arrow routes anywhere, other than the existing 507 and 521?


500 Victoria Station - Marble Arch (rush hour) The route was longer
between the rush hours and included part of Oxford Street.

501 Waterloo Station - London Bridge Station.
502 Waterloo Station - Liverpool Street Station
503 Waterloo Station - Victoria Station.
505 Waterloo Station - Marble Arch.
506 Victoria Station - Piccadilly Circus.
507 Waterloo Station - Victoria Station.
513 Waterloo Station - London Bridge Station.


I had no idea there used to be so many! Thanks!

Cheers,

Steve M

Barry Salter wrote:

snippity

Well according to the TfL Journey Planner, the 507 stops at:

Victoria Bus Station
Westminster Cathedral
Army & Navy
Strutton Ground
Marsham Street
Millbank / Horseferry Road
Lambeth Palace
St.Thomas Hospital
Waterloo Station


So it seems to be more of a "semi-fast" than an express service these
days...

Cheers,

Barry


I don't know the 521 that well, but certainly for the 507 those are all
the possible stops en-route between Victoria and Waterloo (via Lambeth
Bridge). To me though, it does feel slightly more "semi-fast" than the
211 via Westminster Bridge, probably due to the amount of traffic around
Parliament Square.

Cheers,

Steve M

"Rupert Candy" wrote in message
oups.com...

HEFTY SNIP

This is truly obscure, but I couldn't resist posting it - I was in
Stockholm earlier this week and was flabbergasted to find, attached to
the ceiling of an "English pub" (which is incidentally a very common
beast there) a NSE-era (ie blue and white) line diagram from Watford
Junction, which showed the DC line service to Euston, plus peak-hour
services to Liverpool Street (*not* Broad Street). The sign also showed
Primrose Hill and the Croxley Green branch, so that might help in
dating it.

Did NLL services ever run into Liverpool St? I have a reasonable
digital photo of the sign if anyone's interested.

Could you please post it to a.b.p.r. ?
Cheerz,
Baz

Fascinating stuff, Stephen! Mind if i ask a few more questions ...

On 2 Apr 2005, Stephen Furley wrote:

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message ...
wrote in message
oups.com...

Talking of Broad Street, what happenned to the services that used to
operate into this station? I also see, from looking elsewhere that
Broad Street had an Underground station. What happenned to this?

As I understand it, the Palace Gates to North Woolwich and Richmond to
Broad Street services were merged to become Richmond to North
Woolwich. The Palace Gates branch closed a while ago, so there was
presumably a period when there was just a Dalston Junction (or
thereabouts) to North Woolwich shuttle.

After Palace Gates closed, around '64 I think, the service became
Tottenham Hale - North Woolwich.

Any idea what (if any) services ran up the Lea Valley line from Stratford
to Tottenham before that? And were there any other such services after
'64? This bit of line is basically completely disused now (though there
are plans to use it again), so it's interesting to know how it was once
used.

Later, '80s sometime, Tottenham Hale service became a shuttle to
Stratford, in peak hours only. This was withdrawn in 1984, and Lea
Bridge station closed. North Woolwich service was diverted to Camden
Road via the line from Dalston Western Junction to Stratford Low Level,
which had been freight only since the Broad Street - Poplar service was
withdrawn in the '40s, and never re-instated after the war.

The line from Victoria Park Junction to Poplar remained open for
freight, but became little used with the closure of the docks. It
finally closed to all traffic around 1984. The DLR later took over the
Southern section of this route, All Saints station is on the site of the
old North London Poplar East India Road station. A small part of the
original front wall of the station building is still there, at least I
think it is, it was last year.

I've never heard about a line from there to Poplar before (but then i
don't know much about this stuff) - am i right in thinking that ran from
the northeast corner of Victoria Park to Bow, roundabout where what is now
the DLR crosses Bow Road? Looking at the map, that looks like a very
sensible alignment; in fact, it's sort of obvious there was once a railway
there when you look at the orientation of the lines!

The Northern section of this route, from Victoria Park Junction to where
the DLR service from Stratford joins it is abandoned; the bridge
carrying it over the Hertford Union Canal was removed long ago, but a
fairly modern, large blue-painted steel bridge which carried it over
roads just south of the junction survived for much longer, and could be
seen from passing North London Line trains to Stratford.

You can see the old bridge over the roads on the OS Landranger map on
Multimap; no idea how old that is.

Interestingly, on another map (Multimap's 1:50 000), there even seems to
be a bit of line projecting to the north of Bow Road; surely there isn't
actually anything there? I'm not sure if it's a mistake, a misreading, or
a nihilkartel!

Hackney station was re-opened as Hackney Central, though not using the
original building, which still survives.

Where abouts is that? Is it the thing that's now a trendy bar, right under
the line and on Mare Street?

Anyway, thanks for the info. It's fascinating to see how much the railways
have shifted about - the stuff about the GN moving from the Widened Lines
to the Northern City Line, which it took over from LU, for example. I'm
used to thinking about railways as very much permanent, immutable things,
but in reality, they're incredibly plastic.

tom

--
Gens una summus.

Liverpool Street over a very sharp curve that was newly built. That's
why Watford is one of the destinations you can see when the blinds
flip
over at Liverpool Street.

Not any more, the information boards are all electronic now!

B2003

Marratxi wrote:
Could you please post it to a.b.p.r. ?
Cheerz,
Baz

I'll try and do it this evening. If you (and Tom) want a copy, email me
at Tiscali in the UK using my first and last names separated by a dot
as the username...