asdf wrote:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:19:53 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:


Ed Lake wrote:

I'm only assuming that the culprit is familiar with the way things
happen at King's Cross. I'm assuming that he's gotten off the
eastbound Circle line at the same time every weekday for years and
knows that a westbound train arrives at the other side of the
platform moments later.

Moments later? Meaning just a few seconds? No, it will in practice be
anything from 0 to 2 minutes, or longer if the service is disrupted,
which is not uncommon.


He also knows that as he's going up the elevator, a southbound
Picadilly Line train arrives at an upper level. He's not going by
any specific schedule. He's going by his EXPERIENCE with what
happens at King's Cross.

Clearly *you* don't have any relevant experience of how LU operates in
practice. Apart from the fact that you don't go *up* in a *lift*
(elevator) to the Piccadilly at King's Cross, the idea that a Piccadilly
train arrives at precisely the same time every day ("as he's going up
the elevator") is an absurd assumption.


This is the same guy who has repeatedly suggested that the bombs were
placed under seats. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd never been on an
Underground train in his life. In any case it's obvious he has no idea
what he's talking about.

I've ridden the London Underground many times, but the last time was
over 15 years ago. If you can't put bombs under seats, then where was
it? It had to be placed somewhere. It was NOT held by a suicide
bomber. Someone said there is a parcel bin near the door. If the seats
fold up when not in use, that doesn't prevent someone from putting a
bomb on the floor beneath it. It just means the bomb will be visible
(perhaps looking like a rolled up newspaper, a box or a paper bag) when
the seat is up, and the seat wouldn't be up for very long on a crowded
train.

Ed

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article , (Ed Lake)
wrote:


He almost certainly had the bomb in his hand and didn't have to take it
out of the bag when he got on the Picadilly Line train. If the bomb
was dark and oblong (the shape of a boxed bottle of liquor) or a color
that matched the walls or floor of the train and ordinary looking, he
could have slipped it under a seat without attracting much attention.
And if he did it immediately after the train arrived, he could exit
with the last of the passengers and he'd look like someone who just got
on the wrong train by accident.


He couldn't have placed a bomb under any C stock or 73ts seat. Look at the
stocks. It can't be done. But there is plenty of space by doors where bags
would likely not be noticed.

Great! Thanks! I appreciate being corrected with a better idea. The
space by the doors makes it EASIER for someone to place a bomb and then
leave the train before the doors close.

Ed

Peter Vos wrote:

I completely agree with you, it was planned by lines not specific
trains. The configuration of the KX stop suggests that he may have
left the bombs by the doors that opened on the KX platform because it
is the doors on the OPPOSITE side that open for other stations.

That makes it even more likely a one man job. Basically you plant the
two bombs on the Circle Line with anywhere from 6 to 10 minutes left
over to get to the Piccadilly Line platform.

What I'm wondering is how commonly do trains going in opposite
directions show up at about the same time on the Circle Line platform
at KX? The reason I ask is I could see this sort of scenario:

Get to Circle Line around 8:00 and wait until you have two trains going
in opposite direction arriving at the platform close in time. For
example, when one is in the station while another is approaching. That
is the pair you pick. The reason being it will give you the most time
(8 to 10 minutes) to get to the Piccadilly Line. There you simply hit
whichever train shows up first. You don't hang around long enough to
hit trains going in both directions on that line because there was no
way you could do that and keep the explosions more or less
synchronized.

This cuts out all the shuttling back and forth and makes it real easy
for one man to do it. It has an added advantage: If you wait to start
the sequence when you have two trains in hand, even if the Piccadilly
Line is out of service you will be guaranteed a double hit. The short
delay on the Russell St. bomb could reflect a longer wait than
anticipated for a target train or it could have been set shorter.

I'm inclined to believe the timers were all set at the same time and
the last train simply took a bit longer to arrive than expected. The
alternative (you set and drop, set and drop, set and drop....) would
require a separate countdown timer to keep track of elapsed time and
would be too confusing for most people, especially working under a
tight schedule with no room for mistakes.

This scenario suggests they should be looking for a male weighing 70 to
80 kg (about 150 to 180 lb) who is in good physical condition, carrying
a backpack traveling from the Circle line platform between 8:35 and
8:45 who takes the escalator to Piccadilly then quickly takes the
escalator to the surface.

Agreed! And because he didn't have time to unpack a bomb while ON the
second Circle Line train or ON the Picadilly train before he had to get
off again, he probably took the bomb out of the bag while moving between
trains. That would make it easier to spot him on surveillance tapes.
The bomb wouldn't LOOK like a bomb, of course.

Ed


yitzak wrote:

No!
what I meant to say was that on a journey that can take 30mins, it can
take 45 mins; Without obvious problems (which there are many daily).
When there are problems it can get to an hour.
Its not an exact science, stations get packed they sometimes stop you
actually getting into the station/platform.

Of course Euston Sq is very close walkable - but its not uncoomon esp
on the circle line to get stuck in a tunnel.

Also no space under seats - only by removing cushions and no rubbish
bins - the IRA saw to that.

Not disputing one man could have done it, but I don't think he had
preplanned trains - just the lines.

In message .com, at
07:31:16 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked:

Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day.

On the Circle, I doubt it. Or did the question actually refer to any
kind of train on the line?

There is a
schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
approaching.

When asking questions about things like this it's important to be
precise!

If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.

So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long
before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes
would be a sensible answer.

The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.

Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then
that would suggest the same position on the platform.

Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening,

I think we have pretty much established that the original question was
wrong.

you will certainly catch a break before 9:00

And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses
preset to that time).

--
Roland Perry

fatherivy wrote:

Peter Vos wrote:


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.


Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs[*] of
explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
weight on their back.

Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
the next target.

Actually, it isn't that bad. He was only carrying 40 pounds when he got
on the first Circle Line train. He left 10 pounds there and only had to
carry the 30 pounds of explosive a few yards to the second Circle Line
Train. Then he only had to carry 20 pounds to the Picadilly Line
platform. Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to
Euston (Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the
upper deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross.

Ed

In message , at 09:42:55 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
I'd read that the Circle Line is in the deepest tunnel, so I assumed
that the Circle Line passed UNDER the Picadilly Line at King's Cross.
If that's not true, let me know.

The Circle line is the *least* deep. And to all intents and purposes
it's a separate station, especially during the current building works in
the booking hall.

The bomb on the Picadilly Line exploded closest to King's Cross, which
probably means it was the last bomb placed on the trains.

More than "probably". Absolutely certainly - *if* they were all put on
board at KX just prior to those three trains making their final journey
through the station.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:49:01 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
I've ridden the London Underground many times, but the last time was
over 15 years ago. If you can't put bombs under seats, then where was
it? It had to be placed somewhere.

On the floor, probably in the vestibule by the doors.

It was NOT held by a suicide bomber. Someone said there is a parcel
bin near the door.

Not a bin. But some trains have a larger than normal vestibule (imagine
some of the seats being missing) so people can transport large bags.

If the seats fold up when not in use,

The folding seats are so that the "extra big luggage vestibule" areas
can be used for seating if there are no bags present, and if the train
is sufficiently uncrowded that there aren't three or four people
standing in the space the seated passenger would require.

that doesn't prevent someone from putting a bomb on the floor beneath
it.

They spring back up violently, the moment you stop sitting on them.

It just means the bomb will be visible (perhaps looking like a rolled
up newspaper, a box or a paper bag) when the seat is up, and the seat
wouldn't be up for very long on a crowded train.

It would, because people would use the space to "*stand* in, on a
crowded train.

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:05:24 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to Euston
(Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the upper
deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross.

The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would
he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the
Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene
of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs).

If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing
right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45
minutes.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:05:24 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to Euston
(Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the upper
deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross.

The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would
he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the
Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene
of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs).

If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing
right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45
minutes.
--
Roland Perry

The theory I heard was he picked that bus because it would arrive at
KXSP and go off while people were exiting the station. However, the bus
was detoured so it went off on a side street.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
07:31:16 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked:

Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day.

On the Circle, I doubt it. Or did the question actually refer to any
kind of train on the line?

There is a
schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
approaching.

When asking questions about things like this it's important to be
precise!

If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.

So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long
before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes
would be a sensible answer.

The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.

Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then
that would suggest the same position on the platform.

according to BBC eastbound was 2nd car and westbound was also 2nd car,
although the police said floor of 3rd car.


Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening,

I think we have pretty much established that the original question was
wrong.

you will certainly catch a break before 9:00

And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses
preset to that time).

I thought we were talking statistically here. If you have 5 to 7
trains passing in a given direction over the course of half an hour and
a 1 in 5 chance that you will have trains in opposite directions
converging on the platform, then at SOME POINT during the half hour you
are virtually guaranteed of this happening at least once.

Given the time of detonation and the relative distances from KXSP, it
looks like that convergence would have to occur around 8:38 to 8:40


--
Roland Perry