In message , at 11:39:30 on Mon, 11 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
If the bomb was dark and oblong (the shape of a boxed bottle of liquor)
or a color that matched the walls or floor of the train and ordinary
looking, he could have slipped it under a seat without attracting much
attention.

Except the trains don't have an "under the seat", in that sense. Some of
the seats have cushions which can be lifted up, but you couldn't do that
without attracting *lots* of attention (and many, perhaps not all) are
fixed in place with cable-ties as part of a years-old security
precaution.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:39:30 on Mon, 11 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked:
If the bomb was dark and oblong (the shape of a boxed bottle of liquor)
or a color that matched the walls or floor of the train and ordinary
looking, he could have slipped it under a seat without attracting much
attention.

Except the trains don't have an "under the seat", in that sense. Some of
the seats have cushions which can be lifted up, but you couldn't do that
without attracting *lots* of attention (and many, perhaps not all) are
fixed in place with cable-ties as part of a years-old security
precaution.
--
Roland Perry

I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
opposite side of the train. That means the doors that open at KX are
not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.

The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool? Were the blasts on the
204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?

If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.

I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
or nearly the same time? Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.

No!
what I meant to say was that on a journey that can take 30mins, it can
take 45 mins; Without obvious problems (which there are many daily).
When there are problems it can get to an hour.
Its not an exact science, stations get packed they sometimes stop you
actually getting into the station/platform.

Of course Euston Sq is very close walkable - but its not uncoomon esp
on the circle line to get stuck in a tunnel.

Also no space under seats - only by removing cushions and no rubbish
bins - the IRA saw to that.

Not disputing one man could have done it, but I don't think he had
preplanned trains - just the lines.

I completely agree with you, it was planned by lines not specific
trains. The configuration of the KX stop suggests that he may have
left the bombs by the doors that opened on the KX platform because it
is the doors on the OPPOSITE side that open for other stations.

That makes it even more likely a one man job. Basically you plant the
two bombs on the Circle Line with anywhere from 6 to 10 minutes left
over to get to the Piccadilly Line platform.

What I'm wondering is how commonly do trains going in opposite
directions show up at about the same time on the Circle Line platform
at KX? The reason I ask is I could see this sort of scenario:

Get to Circle Line around 8:00 and wait until you have two trains going
in opposite direction arriving at the platform close in time. For
example, when one is in the station while another is approaching. That
is the pair you pick. The reason being it will give you the most time
(8 to 10 minutes) to get to the Piccadilly Line. There you simply hit
whichever train shows up first. You don't hang around long enough to
hit trains going in both directions on that line because there was no
way you could do that and keep the explosions more or less
synchronized.

This cuts out all the shuttling back and forth and makes it real easy
for one man to do it. It has an added advantage: If you wait to start
the sequence when you have two trains in hand, even if the Piccadilly
Line is out of service you will be guaranteed a double hit. The short
delay on the Russell St. bomb could reflect a longer wait than
anticipated for a target train or it could have been set shorter.

I'm inclined to believe the timers were all set at the same time and
the last train simply took a bit longer to arrive than expected. The
alternative (you set and drop, set and drop, set and drop....) would
require a separate countdown timer to keep track of elapsed time and
would be too confusing for most people, especially working under a
tight schedule with no room for mistakes.

This scenario suggests they should be looking for a male weighing 70 to
80 kg (about 150 to 180 lb) who is in good physical condition, carrying
a backpack traveling from the Circle line platform between 8:35 and
8:45 who takes the escalator to Piccadilly then quickly takes the
escalator to the surface.



yitzak wrote:
No!
what I meant to say was that on a journey that can take 30mins, it can
take 45 mins; Without obvious problems (which there are many daily).
When there are problems it can get to an hour.
Its not an exact science, stations get packed they sometimes stop you
actually getting into the station/platform.

Of course Euston Sq is very close walkable - but its not uncoomon esp
on the circle line to get stuck in a tunnel.

Also no space under seats - only by removing cushions and no rubbish
bins - the IRA saw to that.

Not disputing one man could have done it, but I don't think he had
preplanned trains - just the lines.

Peter Vos wrote:


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.


Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs[*] of
explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
weight on their back.

Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
the next target.
[*]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_...#Investigation

yitzak wrote:
No!
what I meant to say was that on a journey that can take 30mins, it can
take 45 mins; Without obvious problems (which there are many daily).
When there are problems it can get to an hour.
Its not an exact science, stations get packed they sometimes stop you
actually getting into the station/platform.

Of course Euston Sq is very close walkable - but its not uncoomon esp
on the circle line to get stuck in a tunnel.

Also no space under seats - only by removing cushions and no rubbish
bins - the IRA saw to that.

Not disputing one man could have done it, but I don't think he had
preplanned trains - just the lines.

fatherivy wrote:
Peter Vos wrote:


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.


Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs[*] of
explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
weight on their back.

Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
the next target.

Boy Scout backpacking guidelines stipulate 25% to 30% of your weight
for heavy duty hikes. That means you have a guy in good physical shape
weighing 70 to 90 kg (about 150 to 200 lb). If you are planting two on
Circle Line, then you already have one out when the first train
arrives. Grab the second and drop that soon after. Now you are
travelling towards Piccadilly with no more than 30 lbs.... a relatively
small woman could handle that with no problem.

[*]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_...#Investigation

In message .com, at
04:48:19 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Peter Vos remarked:

I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
opposite side of the train.

The only one on that section of the line.

That means the doors that open at KX are
not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.

That is certainly a possibility.

The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?

In the UK we tend not abbreviate places like that. Edgware is a suburb
in north London, and Liverpool a big city halfway to Scotland.

You would definitely get as far as Liverpool St, however Edgware Road
also has island platforms, bit I cannot from memory tell you if a Circle
Line train might open the righthand doors there. It wouldn't have done
so earlier in the trip from Kings Cross.

Were the blasts on the
204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?

I have seen no reports that would either confirm or deny the theory.

If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.

I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
or nearly the same time?

If there's clockwise one circle line train every 10 minutes (you'd have
to check what the interval actually is) and they are stopped at the
station for 30 seconds (again, check) then you'd have a 1 in 20 chance
that at any instant there was such a train stopped at the station. If
you start the observation when an anticlockwise circle line train enters
the station, and end it when it leaves, then it doesn't alter the
probability very much.

This assumes there's no particular timetable, adhered to, which might
mean that there were always, or never, two circle line trains on either
side of the island. (The island is also very wide, with connecting
passages linking two running tunnels, rather than being a narrow "open
air" island; so you don't tend to see trains on both sides at once
unless you stand at the very eastern end.)

Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

Similarly, the trip to the Piccadilly line and the wait there can be
very unpredictable because of crowds, non-operational escalators, and
earlier problems with the Piccadilly line which have been mentioned
elsewhere. You might easily get to the Piccadilly line platform and find
no trains at all!

If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.

If the scheme you are suggesting was what happened, then the people were
lucky to get the package on board the Piccadilly train when they did -
only perhaps 45 seconds before it detonated.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
04:48:19 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Peter Vos remarked:

I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
opposite side of the train.

The only one on that section of the line.

That means the doors that open at KX are
not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.

That is certainly a possibility.

The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?

In the UK we tend not abbreviate places like that. Edgware is a suburb
in north London, and Liverpool a big city halfway to Scotland.

You would definitely get as far as Liverpool St, however Edgware Road
also has island platforms, bit I cannot from memory tell you if a Circle
Line train might open the righthand doors there. It wouldn't have done
so earlier in the trip from Kings Cross.

Were the blasts on the
204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?

I have seen no reports that would either confirm or deny the theory.

If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.

I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
or nearly the same time?

If there's clockwise one circle line train every 10 minutes
(you'd have
to check what the interval actually is) and they are stopped at the
station for 30 seconds (again, check) then you'd have a 1 in 20 chance
that at any instant there was such a train stopped at the station. If
you start the observation when an anticlockwise circle line train enters
the station, and end it when it leaves, then it doesn't alter the
probability very much.

Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day. There is a
schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
approaching. If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.

This assumes there's no particular timetable, adhered to, which might

There is a timetable, but the more critical thing is the spacing out of
cars.

mean that there were always, or never, two circle line trains on either
side of the island. (The island is also very wide, with connecting
passages linking two running tunnels, rather than being a narrow "open
air" island; so you don't tend to see trains on both sides at once
unless you stand at the very eastern end.)

The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.


Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.

I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.

I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening, you will certainly catch a break before 9:00


Similarly, the trip to the Piccadilly line and the wait there can be
very unpredictable because of crowds, non-operational escalators, and
earlier problems with the Piccadilly line which have been mentioned
elsewhere. You might easily get to the Piccadilly line platform and find
no trains at all!

That's why I was budgeting as much time as possible by having the first
two trains as close together in time as possible.


If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.

If the scheme you are suggesting was what happened, then the people were
lucky to get the package on board the Piccadilly train when they did -
only perhaps 45 seconds before it detonated.

That is true, and suggests they were flying off the escalator to get to
the train before it left. It also suggests some serious nerve to be
rushing for a train with a ticking time bomb. This suggests someone
with demolition experience (probably former military) and maybe even
combat experience.

--
Roland Perry

Richard J. wrote:
Ed Lake wrote:

I'm only assuming that the culprit is familiar with the way things
happen at King's Cross. I'm assuming that he's gotten off the
eastbound Circle line at the same time every weekday for years and
knows that a westbound train arrives at the other side of the
platform moments later.


Moments later? Meaning just a few seconds? No, it will in practice be
anything from 0 to 2 minutes, or longer if the service is disrupted,
which is not uncommon.

It doesn't matter if it was moments or minutes. Minutes is better. He
probably took the second bomb out of the bag after getting off the first
Circle Line train and before getting on the second Circle Line train.
And he may have needed to set it or activate it. If he was quickly
getting on and off the second train, he wouldn't have time to fiddle
with the bomb while on the train.

He also knows that as he's going up the elevator, a southbound
Picadilly Line train arrives at an upper level. He's not going by
any specific schedule. He's going by his EXPERIENCE with what
happens at King's Cross.


Clearly *you* don't have any relevant experience of how LU operates in
practice. Apart from the fact that you don't go *up* in a *lift*
(elevator) to the Piccadilly at King's Cross, the idea that a Piccadilly
train arrives at precisely the same time every day ("as he's going up
the elevator") is an absurd assumption.

Sorry, I meant escalator not elevator. It was a typo. The front end of
the Picadilly train is near the escalator and the bomb was planted on
the front end of the Picadilly train.

I'd read that the Circle Line is in the deepest tunnel, so I assumed
that the Circle Line passed UNDER the Picadilly Line at King's Cross.
If that's not true, let me know. The bomb on the Picadilly Line
exploded closest to King's Cross, which probably means it was the last
bomb placed on the trains. So, did the bomber go down a level to plant
the third bomb and then go back up to the surface? It doesn't change
anything, but it might be seen as another fact which seems to verify
that the bomber ARRIVED at King's Cross on the eastbound Cirlce Line train.

Ed
anthraxinvestigation.com