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In message , TKD
writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... You cannot use pre-pay Oyster on South-West Trains (or on most other National Rail services in London), so the only part of the journey covered by Oyster is the bus and tube journeys. That comes to £5.90, which is well below the £8 cap for peak-time travel in both Zones 1-4. You would come under the Zone 1 cap as all your tube use is in Zone 1. Bus journeys ignore zones and are included in any capped tube price even if the bus journey was in a totally different zone to the tube cap. Not sure what that makes your cap without looking it up. The Peak Zone 1 cap is £6, so £5.40 (sorry, its not £5.90) still wouldn't reach the cap. Thus Oyster remains almost 50% more expensive for the journey I have described. -- Paul Terry |
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"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , TKD writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... You cannot use pre-pay Oyster on South-West Trains (or on most other National Rail services in London), so the only part of the journey covered by Oyster is the bus and tube journeys. That comes to £5.90, which is well below the £8 cap for peak-time travel in both Zones 1-4. You would come under the Zone 1 cap as all your tube use is in Zone 1. Bus journeys ignore zones and are included in any capped tube price even if the bus journey was in a totally different zone to the tube cap. Not sure what that makes your cap without looking it up. The Peak Zone 1 cap is £6, so £5.40 (sorry, its not £5.90) still wouldn't reach the cap. Thus Oyster remains almost 50% more expensive for the journey I have described. If I were you I'd buy a travelcard. :-) |
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"Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:13:03 GMT, (Neil Williams) wrote: Germans who in a lot of cases (e.g. Hamburg) can do a multimodal journey involving several modes and changes on one single ticket. You mean rather like a Travelcard? Or an Oyster capped at Travelcard rate? No, that's the equivilent of a day pass for multiple journeys. Almost all German municipal transist systems allow: unlimited changes within a specified time for a single journey (in a single direction) for the price of single ticket for the zones traversed. There is nothing equivilent to this on any UK system that I know of. tim |
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On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:15:56 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
Does anyone have any news on what is happening to weekly/monthly travelcard prices? Am just wondering if they will be going down to reflect the reductions in Oyster pre-pay or not.. http://www.london.gov.uk/news/docs/fares_2006.pdf thanks for posting that link. It's the first time I've seen the full set of fares in all their "glory". I've been away so haven't quite been able to understand quite what all the furore is about elsewhere in the thread. However I now understand. While I understand the principle of providing an incentive for people to switch to Oyster - in HK there is a differential between Octopus (SVT) and cash fares - this is really quite extreme. I can foresee horrendous short term problems come January when people try to get their heads round this set up. I feel tremendously sad for passengers and ticketing staff who will have to try to cope with all of this. It is evident from posts here, as well as from the very low level of take up, that people simply do not understand what pre pay is and how it works. The huge attachment to Travelcard and its relative ease of use is obviously a factor in making it hard for people to understand how pre-pay works alongside it or in the case of capping or extensions in conjunction with it. TfL urgently need to get more information out to actual and potential card holders as to how Oyster works - publicity has been dumbed down too far. While I would like to think that I'm a bit of an expert on ticketing matters I feel that I'm losing the plot in terms of trying to understand exactly how all of this is going to work in practice. There are simply too many variables and choices despite various aspects of the ticketing range having been removed over the last 2-3 years. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:29:15 +0100, U n d e r a c h i e v e r
wrote: On 7/10/05 12:31 pm, in article , "John Ray" wrote: I don't think that a cash fare of GBP3 is intended to be seen as reasonable. If it isn't, and I think it's not, it will not be lawful I doubt that, even though I do feel it is too high. Organisations can legally charge what they like for their services. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:54:15 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
And it is not supposed to be. It is for Londonders not "people all over the Home counties" Don't be silly. It is for whoever uses London's transport. There is no requirement to live in London. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:15:26 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote: Interestingly, people from overseas often tend to be, much more at home with London's transport system than people from other parts of the UK. I can't say I am very surprised by this statement except that most Americans have little experience of public transport systems. They then (IME) tend to be overawed when they venture on to the Tube or possibly even a bus. Watching two American ladies trying to buy day tickets in Berlin last week was an excruciating experience. The BVG chap was incredibly patient. My group this weekend were on what was essentially a theatre break and many of them do the same thing several times a year. And yet I estimate that 80% of them went no further than they could walk from Park Lane this morning (bearing in mind we dropped them off there at about 1030 and picked them up at 1500). Coming back to the coach, four ladies managed to get lost between Hyde Park Corner and the coach which was parked near the new "Animals at War" monument near Upper Brook Street. Do you have a theory as to why this is? Are they just nervous about being in a big city, frightened they are going to be robbed or just have no sense of direction and thus are likely to get lost? Last night two people tried to "latch on" to another (much more resourceful) couple because they were nervous about my instructions to get to the Dominion Theatre in Tottenham Court Road from the drop off in Shaftesbury Avenue, despite my careful explanation. Although it may seem otherwise, I'm not painting these people out to be dim or stupid but just trying to explain that what probably seems commonplace to people on utl can seem very, very unfamiliar to people who are strangers to London. I appreciate you are not being cruel about these people but it does make me wonder how they cope in doing other basic life tasks - assuming they are not disabled in some way. While there is always a learning curve in any new city - Rome's ticketing system and its buses were a good example of that for me recently - it's normally quite easy to do a bit of research, read a guide book, ask some "dumb" questions and off you go. Do your clients not do any of this? And yes, slapping an Oyster Card on a yellow disc *would* intimidate some! Having seen people trying to feed Oyster cards into both the entry and exit slots on ticket gates I would agree. I also had problems getting the "swipe speed" correct for New York's Metrocard when I used it a few years ago. That made me feel a bit of a dimbo! -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:57:08 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote: You mean rather like a Travelcard? Or an Oyster capped at Travelcard rate? No, a *single* ticket, i.e. one which permits one journey in one direction only, not an unlimited-journey ticket. The kind that will cost gbp3 under the new arrangements :) Something similar exists in many other countries - almost a two-hour Travelcard type thing. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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And it is not supposed to be. It is for Londonders not "people all over the Home counties" Don't be silly. It is for whoever uses London's transport. There is no requirement to live in London. No. The primary market is Londoners. The secondary market is people from somewhere else who use it to travel *within* London. Colin Rosenstiel was talking about journeys from a place outside London to a place in London and Oyster Card is not intended for that, which was my point. |
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In ,
TKD typed: It hasn't worked for me once. The last piece of advice I got was to touch in at the barriers at Kings Cross TL and touch the validator on the platform. When arriving at London Bridge, touch the validator on the platform and then touch out through the barriers (so touch-in/out twice at each end). I don't think you need to touch the platform validator at KXTL. This would only be needed if you arrived at KXTL from somewhere else on another ticket. -- Bob |
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It hasn't worked for me once. The last piece of advice I got was to
touch in at the barriers at Kings Cross TL and touch the validator on the platform. When arriving at London Bridge, touch the validator on the platform and then touch out through the barriers (so touch-in/out twice at each end). I don't think you need to touch the platform validator at KXTL. This would only be needed if you arrived at KXTL from somewhere else on another ticket. That is what I assumed but the Oyster helpline person told me the barriers at Kings Cross TL only let you through, they don't record the start of your journey and you have to touch the validator. Either way it didn't work for me so I only use TL if I have a weekly on my card. |
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"James Farrar" wrote in message
... On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:39:31 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Many Americans can't tell the difference (in accent) between English and Australian. And many English people can't tell the difference between American and Canadian. The USA and Canada are a millimetre apart. England and Australia are not. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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In message , Paul Corfield
writes On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:15:26 +0100, Ian Jelf wrote: My group this weekend were on what was essentially a theatre break and many of them do the same thing several times a year. And yet I estimate that 80% of them went no further than they could walk from Park Lane this morning (bearing in mind we dropped them off there at about 1030 and picked them up at 1500). Coming back to the coach, four ladies managed to get lost between Hyde Park Corner and the coach which was parked near the new "Animals at War" monument near Upper Brook Street. Do you have a theory as to why this is? Are they just nervous about being in a big city, frightened they are going to be robbed or just have no sense of direction and thus are likely to get lost? They often seem not to understand London's vast size, strangely enough. I'm regularly asked how far it us to "the centre" or "the shops" as though we were talking about Norwich or Saint Helens or somewhere much smaller. The concept of a multiple-centred city seems not to occur to some. As for the theory, I think all the things you suggest there can be factors. I'd add to that fear of being blown up now, too. There are also *many* people from other parts of the UK who *never* use public transport and I think that that can be a BIG factor. Although it may seem otherwise, I'm not painting these people out to be dim or stupid but just trying to explain that what probably seems commonplace to people on utl can seem very, very unfamiliar to people who are strangers to London. I appreciate you are not being cruel about these people but it does make me wonder how they cope in doing other basic life tasks - assuming they are not disabled in some way. Maybe because they only ever do things in a routine. Exploring new places is off the agenda for a lot of people. While there is always a learning curve in any new city - Rome's ticketing system and its buses were a good example of that for me recently - it's normally quite easy to do a bit of research, read a guide book, ask some "dumb" questions and off you go. Do your clients not do any of this? Often not, no! I ought to point out, though, that maybe by definition of what I do a lot of people I encounter *don't* go off to do things on their own. They join someone like me to show it to them in a particular way. If I wanted to discover London, I'd do it by ordinary London Bus and spot things as I go. Fortunately for my wallet, other people prefer to pay someone else to do it for them! And yes, slapping an Oyster Card on a yellow disc *would* intimidate some! Having seen people trying to feed Oyster cards into both the entry and exit slots on ticket gates I would agree. Someone in a shop told me recently that when they ask people if they have a PIN for their Credit Cards, a lot of people promptly recite it to them! I also had problems getting the "swipe speed" correct for New York's Metrocard when I used it a few years ago. That made me feel a bit of a dimbo! Yes we all do these things! -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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In message , Dave Hillam
] writes The arcane art of getting on buses has been something that seems to elude even people who have lived and worked in London for most of their life. One friend who has just retired regards the red omnibus as the work of the devil, despite having a strong preference for public transport in general. When I was training as a guide, I always travelled around central London by 'bus, unless time was such that I had to take the Tube. I did this because I was having to get a "feel" for the geography of London. Where buildings are in relation to one another, time taken to drive past and - yes- for the pleasure of it! All of my fellow students thought I was at the very least a bit strange for doing this. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:59:22 +0100, Paul Terry
wrote: In message , TKD writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... You cannot use pre-pay Oyster on South-West Trains (or on most other National Rail services in London), so the only part of the journey covered by Oyster is the bus and tube journeys. That comes to £5.90, which is well below the £8 cap for peak-time travel in both Zones 1-4. You would come under the Zone 1 cap as all your tube use is in Zone 1. Bus journeys ignore zones and are included in any capped tube price even if the bus journey was in a totally different zone to the tube cap. Not sure what that makes your cap without looking it up. The Peak Zone 1 cap is £6, so £5.40 (sorry, its not £5.90) still wouldn't reach the cap. Thus Oyster remains almost 50% more expensive for the journey I have described. If you cared about costs, you'd get the District line from Richmond... -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:13:42 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote: "James Farrar" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:39:31 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: Many Americans can't tell the difference (in accent) between English and Australian. And many English people can't tell the difference between American and Canadian. The USA and Canada are a millimetre apart. England and Australia are not. Physically. Not in (selected) accents. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:49:07 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
It hasn't worked for me once. The last piece of advice I got was to touch in at the barriers at Kings Cross TL and touch the validator on the platform. When arriving at London Bridge, touch the validator on the platform and then touch out through the barriers (so touch-in/out twice at each end). I don't think you need to touch the platform validator at KXTL. This would only be needed if you arrived at KXTL from somewhere else on another ticket. That is what I assumed but the Oyster helpline person told me the barriers at Kings Cross TL only let you through, they don't record the start of your journey and you have to touch the validator. Either way it didn't work for me so I only use TL if I have a weekly on my card. The oyster helpline was wrong. Only one validation should be performed at Kings Cross Thameslink, either on the gateline or the interchange tunnel. The advice is only applicable to London Bridge, where you must use the platform validator (However, this has been faulty for a few months.) |
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Colin Rosenstiel was talking about journeys from a place outside London
to a place in London and Oyster Card is not intended for that, which was my point. Indeed. So why should we be ripped off with an extortionately higher fare? Our taxes help subsidise TfL too, which is presumably why Travelcards can be purchased from places all over Network South East. You can't have it both ways. You either live in the capital with all the advantages and disadvantages of life here or you don't. |
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It is evident from posts here, as well as from the very low level of
take up, that people simply do not understand what pre pay is and how it works. The huge attachment to Travelcard and its relative ease of use is obviously a factor in making it hard for people to understand how pre-pay works alongside it or in the case of capping or extensions in conjunction with it. TfL urgently need to get more information out to actual and potential card holders as to how Oyster works - publicity has been dumbed down too far. I'd agree with that. I was at a tramstop in Croydon and there were some young girls standing around talking and when one of them queried what the Oyster validator was another replied that 'it was for old people'. I am trying to remember if there has been a mailshot to everyones homes talking about Oyster Pre-Pay. Every now and again bus maps and timetables and area guides turn up but I can't recall a Pre-Pay one. I haven't bought a single on the bus or tube for ages. Is there any Oyster publicity on them? It would be great if it were possible to print 'you would have saved at least £x.xx on this ticket if you'd used Pre-Pay' on them. When it comes to actually using Pre-Pay, something that does frustrate me is the signs above tube and rail platform validators that say words to the effect of "Pre-Pay users touch in here". That simply isn't good enough. More information is needed. For example, at Farringdon Pre-Pay users who will be entering and leaving the station through the gates may pass these validators on the platforms and be tempted to use them. If they are switching between tube and Thameslink they might pass one or two or them and again use one or both of them. Maybe this is harmless but if isn't they should be warned off. The signage should make it clear under what circumstances a validation is needed. Similarly at Wimbledon there are validators on the tube platforms but again no explanatory note to make it clear when they are being used. For example someone arriving on the District Line and switching to the tram might think that touching in on the tram platform removes the need to have touched out on the tube platform or touching out on the tube platform removed the need to touch in. It is also incredibly easy to walk past the validators on the tube platform without thinking. |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:53 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote: In article , (TKD) wrote: And it is not supposed to be. It is for Londonders not "people all over the Home counties" Don't be silly. It is for whoever uses London's transport. There is no requirement to live in London. No. The primary market is Londoners. The secondary market is people from somewhere else who use it to travel *within* London. Colin Rosenstiel was talking about journeys from a place outside London to a place in London and Oyster Card is not intended for that, which was my point. Indeed. So why should we be ripped off with an extortionately higher fare? You're not. If a Travelcard is cheaper, use it. If you need to make single journeys as well, get an Oyster as well. Simple. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
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James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:59:22 +0100, Paul Terry wrote: In message , TKD writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... You cannot use pre-pay Oyster on South-West Trains (or on most other National Rail services in London), so the only part of the journey covered by Oyster is the bus and tube journeys. That comes to £5.90, which is well below the £8 cap for peak-time travel in both Zones 1-4. You would come under the Zone 1 cap as all your tube use is in Zone 1. Bus journeys ignore zones and are included in any capped tube price even if the bus journey was in a totally different zone to the tube cap. Not sure what that makes your cap without looking it up. The Peak Zone 1 cap is £6, so £5.40 (sorry, its not £5.90) still wouldn't reach the cap. Thus Oyster remains almost 50% more expensive for the journey I have described. If you cared about costs, you'd get the District line from Richmond... Perhaps he wants to get somewhere by a certain time! The District line can be slow & unreliable, NR services from Richmond are normally quite good. -- Paul |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:52:17 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote: In message , Paul Corfield writes On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:15:26 +0100, Ian Jelf wrote: My group this weekend were on what was essentially a theatre break and many of them do the same thing several times a year. And yet I estimate that 80% of them went no further than they could walk from Park Lane this morning (bearing in mind we dropped them off there at about 1030 and picked them up at 1500). Coming back to the coach, four ladies managed to get lost between Hyde Park Corner and the coach which was parked near the new "Animals at War" monument near Upper Brook Street. Do you have a theory as to why this is? Are they just nervous about being in a big city, frightened they are going to be robbed or just have no sense of direction and thus are likely to get lost? They often seem not to understand London's vast size, strangely enough. I'm regularly asked how far it us to "the centre" or "the shops" as though we were talking about Norwich or Saint Helens or somewhere much smaller. The concept of a multiple-centred city seems not to occur to some. Ah this is a good point. London is, as you say, multi centred although really it is just a series of rather big districts that all touch other. Odd that they can obviously cope with little a town or even a city with districts (and centres of such) but still expect there just to be one big centre in London. As for the theory, I think all the things you suggest there can be factors. I'd add to that fear of being blown up now, too. Well I suppose that is understandable although there seem to be as many people as ever using the buses and the tube and the tourist areas seem to be heaving with people. Is that your experience of more recent weeks compared to the immediate aftermath of July's incidents? There are also *many* people from other parts of the UK who *never* use public transport and I think that that can be a BIG factor. I would entirely agree with this. So many people have no idea how to use public transport and more often that not see it was the "failure" option to get about. I appreciate you are not being cruel about these people but it does make me wonder how they cope in doing other basic life tasks - assuming they are not disabled in some way. Maybe because they only ever do things in a routine. Exploring new places is off the agenda for a lot of people. Again a very fair comment but I use holidays to get out of a routine and try something or somewhere new with all the unfamiliarity that brings. Goodness knows how they'd cope with Japan! While there is always a learning curve in any new city - Rome's ticketing system and its buses were a good example of that for me recently - it's normally quite easy to do a bit of research, read a guide book, ask some "dumb" questions and off you go. Do your clients not do any of this? Often not, no! I guess I'm just odd then ;-) Someone in a shop told me recently that when they ask people if they have a PIN for their Credit Cards, a lot of people promptly recite it to them! chortle -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:54:50 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote: In message , Dave Hillam ] writes The arcane art of getting on buses has been something that seems to elude even people who have lived and worked in London for most of their life. One friend who has just retired regards the red omnibus as the work of the devil, despite having a strong preference for public transport in general. Trying to persuade some of my LU colleagues to use a bus when it is more convenient than the Tube can prove somewhat challenging! "But it's a bus?!" When I was training as a guide, I always travelled around central London by 'bus, unless time was such that I had to take the Tube. I did this because I was having to get a "feel" for the geography of London. Where buildings are in relation to one another, time taken to drive past and - yes- for the pleasure of it! You are me and I am you. That is exactly how I have put together my mental map of London. All of my fellow students thought I was at the very least a bit strange for doing this. *ding* Back in student days - friend - "where did you go at the weekend" me - "Catford" friend - "Why? where's Catford?" me - "Oh South London, I just went to see what it was like and how to get there on a bus." friend - "on a bus? you must be mad" or words to that effect -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 07:53:27 GMT, "Graham J"
wrote: It is evident from posts here, as well as from the very low level of take up, that people simply do not understand what pre pay is and how it works. The huge attachment to Travelcard and its relative ease of use is obviously a factor in making it hard for people to understand how pre-pay works alongside it or in the case of capping or extensions in conjunction with it. TfL urgently need to get more information out to actual and potential card holders as to how Oyster works - publicity has been dumbed down too far. I'd agree with that. I was at a tramstop in Croydon and there were some young girls standing around talking and when one of them queried what the Oyster validator was another replied that 'it was for old people'. The validator concept is very difficult. We had to specify them because they have to exist at the boundaries of the LU / TfL fare scale. You can't ever gate every interchange point given the historical "design" of so many of our stations. New systems design interchange between stored value systems to work flawlessly - Hong Kong between the MTR and KCRC is the key example. They have the advantage of always having had the requirement to validate in and out of each system. I am trying to remember if there has been a mailshot to everyones homes talking about Oyster Pre-Pay. Every now and again bus maps and timetables and area guides turn up but I can't recall a Pre-Pay one. No but then the tickets book is readily available at stations and you get it on the TfL website. While it has to be written for a mass market it tries, but fails in my view, to deal with the complexities of London's ticketing arrangements. A lot of the old system has necessarily been "compromised" or watered down to make some things work. However places like Wimbledon and London Bridge NR and their arcane validation rules seem to be trying to more than compensate via their own complexity. My recent trip to Berlin uncovered a range of extremely detailed booklets covering the Berlin regional fare system. As with many such systems it is a complex structure but at least information is readily available. Much of this was also covered in a superb Berlin Atlas that shows all the transport routes overlaid on a very clear street atlas complete with schematic diagrams and frequency guides for every bus, tram and U Bahn line. First and last times are included together with times between every stop and what routes you can interchange to at each stop. Their stop specific information is also a model of clarity. Please can we have this for London !!!!!! I haven't bought a single on the bus or tube for ages. Is there any Oyster publicity on them? It would be great if it were possible to print 'you would have saved at least £x.xx on this ticket if you'd used Pre-Pay' on them. I'm not aware that there is any such information on tickets - most people don't look at their tickets anyway. I think it is far more important for good publicity to be provided alongside high quality information being available for people to take away. I couldn't understand the capping rules until I saw a series of worked examples at work. Such examples really should be provided to customers so they can understand how their journey variables (time, date, zone, validate or not) relate to what they can end up paying. The average person doesn't stand a chance of understanding whether they are being charged the right fare. When it comes to actually using Pre-Pay, something that does frustrate me is the signs above tube and rail platform validators that say words to the effect of "Pre-Pay users touch in here". That simply isn't good enough. More information is needed. For example, at Farringdon Pre-Pay users who will be entering and leaving the station through the gates may pass these validators on the platforms and be tempted to use them. If they are switching between tube and Thameslink they might pass one or two or them and again use one or both of them. Maybe this is harmless but if isn't they should be warned off. The signage should make it clear under what circumstances a validation is needed. Similarly at Wimbledon there are validators on the tube platforms but again no explanatory note to make it clear when they are being used. For example someone arriving on the District Line and switching to the tram might think that touching in on the tram platform removes the need to have touched out on the tube platform or touching out on the tube platform removed the need to touch in. It is also incredibly easy to walk past the validators on the tube platform without thinking. I agree with all of the above but the problem is that the sign could end up being 20 feet tall to deal with all of the possible journey / ticket permutations that could arise. NR to / from LU / DLR permutations are almost beyond comprehension because of the wide range of NR tickets. If you then perm that with the range of possibilities of people holding paper travelcards (from out of London) and also an Oyster for pre-pay extensions then I can't see how you communicate clearly on a sign without causing people to crowd by the validators and thus causing congestions. It was mind bending when we did the initial design work to define all of the interfaces - since then DLR and Tramlink have been added in to system. The ticket range and the operation of pre-pay have also changed considerably since the earliest assumptions so I imagine it is even more complex now than in the "mind bending" days. I do agree that many validators are "invisible" and that they need more obvious locational signage when located on platforms or routeways. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On 10 Oct 2005 00:18:31 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote: Arthur Figgis ] wrote [...] language. How on earth can I "press the button for the correct ticket for you journey" if you haven't told me how I can work out what actually is the correct ticket for my journey. Glad it's not just me that gets annoyed by that! (Cologne was doing that when I first visited it in my teens [1975].) Antwerpen did it to me... The ticket machines on the Grenoble tramway say "Croydon Tramlink wishes you a good journey" if you select the English option! Hee ! There is a mention on the unofficial Tramlink site: http://www.ajg41.plus.com/images/rai...tramlink01.jpg -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
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In message , Ian Jelf
writes There are also *many* people from other parts of the UK who *never* use public transport and I think that that can be a BIG factor. I think that's probable (a friend of mine has only one bus a week to a town that happens to have a station, but one with a very poor rail service - no wonder public transport is not an option). But in London, I suspect that strangers are reluctant to use buses because, even when given the route number, they worry about where to get off because they don't know the visual clues and can't (in these days of one-man driver and articulated buses) rely on someone to tell them. If they are in London on an extended holiday, an unexpected over-run may not matter (although getting to the theatre at a certain time, certainly will). On a short visit, when getting back to the coach is a priority, this can become seriously scary. I also suspect that this view is, by analogy, carried over to using the tube - such folk probably don't realise how well tube stations are signed and announced, so again worry about missing their destination. Just my 2 penn'orth, but based on much travelling by public transport in various European cities. -- Paul Terry |
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In message , Paul Corfield
writes My recent trip to Berlin uncovered a range of extremely detailed booklets covering the Berlin regional fare system. As with many such systems it is a complex structure but at least information is readily available. Much of this was also covered in a superb Berlin Atlas that shows all the transport routes overlaid on a very clear street atlas complete with schematic diagrams and frequency guides for every bus, tram and U Bahn line. This is very common in Germany. A lot of the area ADAC (German AA/RAC) area street atlases have such information. For various reasons, though, service revisions are pretty unco0ommon by comparison with the UK! -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 19:49:56 +0100, Paul Terry
wrote: But in London, I suspect that strangers are reluctant to use buses because, even when given the route number, they worry about where to get off because they don't know the visual clues and can't (in these days of one-man driver and articulated buses) rely on someone to tell them. Indeed. However, the technology exists, and has existed for ages, to name stops and provide a display inside the bus showing the next stop and other relevant information, either operated by the driver or (preferably) by GPS. Hamburg has had this on its buses for years, London has (or had) on the RV1, and Manchester does on at least some of the Metroshuttle free buses. Yet it is pretty much 100% absent on other buses in the UK, even those with electronic outside displays. Why, I wonder? It is such an obvious (and relatively inexpensive, certainly in comparison with the price of a brand new bendy) solution to this fairly big problem. It amazes me that London in particular has not implemented it. If Mr. Peddle of MK Metro is reading, it'd be especially suitable for Milton Keynes, where most of the main road stops look the same! Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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In message , Paul Corfield
writes On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 22:52:17 +0100, Ian Jelf wrote: As for the theory, I think all the things you suggest there can be factors. I'd add to that fear of being blown up now, too. Well I suppose that is understandable although there seem to be as many people as ever using the buses and the tube and the tourist areas seem to be heaving with people. Is that your experience of more recent weeks compared to the immediate aftermath of July's incidents? Fear of terrorist attacks doesn't seem to affect Londoners or overseas visitors. Just people form other parts of the UK for some reason. Maybe because they only ever do things in a routine. Exploring new places is off the agenda for a lot of people. Again a very fair comment but I use holidays to get out of a routine and try something or somewhere new with all the unfamiliarity that brings. As I've said elsewhere, I suppose I by definition tend to attract people who are less adventurous. (That said, I get lots of bookings for walks in Bethnal Green and Whitechapel; and not just for "Jack the Ripper" walks, either!) Goodness knows how they'd cope with Japan! One of ,my colleagues who does a lot of long-haul tour managing had a grandmother and granddaughter on her tour in China some years ago. Neither of them would eat Chinese food, so they always headed off to any Western (MdD / KFC) that they spotted everywhere. This resulted - my friend said - in them missing several major things that they'd gone to see! While there is always a learning curve in any new city - Rome's ticketing system and its buses were a good example of that for me recently - it's normally quite easy to do a bit of research, read a guide book, ask some "dumb" questions and off you go. Do your clients not do any of this? Often not, no! I guess I'm just odd then ;-) You are Ian Jelf AICMFP! :-) -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:05:24 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote: Fear of terrorist attacks doesn't seem to affect Londoners or overseas visitors. Just people form other parts of the UK for some reason. Which is in itself bizarre, as most people in UK cities grew up with the IRA and are therefore used to the idea! While I wouldn't say I ignored it completely[1], it certainly has no bearing on whether I would go to London (or any other British city) at any given time. Doing otherwise is letting terrorists win - and even so, the risk is absolutely minimal compared with that of, say, getting run over while crossing the road in, err, London. I was both saddened and surprised by the number of people who posted otherwise on things like the BBC News Have Your Say pages at the time. [1] "It won't happen to me" doesn't apply, as it already has; I got caught up in both the Manchester bomb and the chaos resulting from the Aintree bomb threat. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 20:10:23 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote: That said, there may be a "Verbundtarif" going on in the greater Amsterdam area. They certainly don't only have Strippenkaarts, but also their own area day tickets and similar. Annoyingly, said Verbundtarif ends just before Schiphol. Yes, and this is the area in which you can use a Strippenkaart on the train, indeed a pain that it ends before the airport. As it says on http://www.gvb.nl/reizigers/kaartjek...ppenkaart.html you can use the Strippenkaart at: "Bijlmer - Duivendrecht - Amstel - Muiderpoort - Amsterdam Centraal - Sloterdijk - Lelylaan, Zuid WTC - RAI - Duivendrecht - Diemen-Zuid en Muiderpoort - Diemen." U kunt dus *niet* met uw strippenkaart [...] naar Schiphol." (and the same to you!) Richard. |
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Paul Corfield writes:
friend - "where did you go at the weekend" me - "Catford" friend - "Why? where's Catford?" me - "Oh South London, I just went to see what it was like and how to get there on a bus." friend - "on a bus? you must be mad" Now you expect us to believe that these mad peregrinations were not limited to places that sound sort of like your surname? *Riiiiight!* :-) -- Mark Brader | "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. Toronto | "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have | come here. This is, after all, a Bridge Club." | -- Ray Lee (after Lewis Carroll) |
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In message , Paul Corfield
writes Trying to persuade some of my LU colleagues to use a bus when it is more convenient than the Tube can prove somewhat challenging! "But it's a bus?!" I turned up to a training course north of Wolverhampton by 'bus once. No-one else on it could believe that I'd done so. It was as thought I'd just announced a breakthrough in nuclear fusion. No one wanted me to go back by bus though; everyone felt obliged to offer me a lift! *ding* Back in student days - friend - "where did you go at the weekend" me - "Catford" friend - "Why? where's Catford?" me - "Oh South London, I just went to see what it was like and how to get there on a bus." friend - "on a bus? you must be mad" or words to that effect I tried to entice a group form North London (for whom I used to do a lot of offbeat walks) to do one in Kennington once. You'd have though I'd suggested an afternoon wander around the Kalahari....... -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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In message , Neil Williams
writes However, the technology exists, and has existed for ages, to name stops and provide a display inside the bus showing the next stop and other relevant information, either operated by the driver or (preferably) by GPS. Hamburg has had this on its buses for years, London has (or had) on the RV1, Yes, what happened to that? One minute we had these amazing (and useful) GPS screens, the next they all seemed to be disused. Two other asides...... One of my passengers describing a bendybus to me at the weekend said "you know, the ones that look a bit like a Dyson"! And I was amazed to hear the PA system used while riding on an 8 near Holborn on Sunday morning. I couldn't actually understand what the driver was saying (!) but he seemed to be using it to announce a stop for someone who must have asked. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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