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"Clive" wrote in message ... In message , TKD writes Its economy does :) Go North/East/South/West young man. Grow up a bit, then you, might be worth listening to. -- Clive Can't take a joke? I've lived and worked in the north east as well as London and seen how derelict factory has given way to service industry. This doesn't change the fact that London is the powerhouse that drives our economy and everywhere else is secondary. Trying to suggest otherwise is immature. |
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In message , at 00:05:22 on
Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Phil Richards remarked: If the employee leaves (or is dismissed) before the end of the repayment period despite having no doubt signed a contract to say they must repay the loan in full, I'm sure some slip through the net. There are two obvious ways round this. Make it a condition that when leaving employment you return the card (the employer can then get a refund of at least the majority of the outstanding fare). If the employee fails to do this, report them to the police just as you would if they absconded with a company car. And/or: Don't hand over their final month's money, or any severance pay, until the matter is resolved. -- Roland Perry |
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:02:39 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote: "James Farrar" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:43:40 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)" wrote: So you're already choosing to pay more. No you are not. Anyone with any sense does not buy a monthly pass to cover their 2 week xmas and summer break Assuming you take your holiday as such. In my experience most people take their holiday entitlement in more than two blocks. You know a weird set of 'most' people. IME most people have 2 weeks off at Xmas because their employer gives them no choice. Absolutely no people I know - and that cover a wide variety of jobs - gets that. Just about the closest would be employers who shutdown from XmD to NYD, which is only 8-10 days depending on when the weekends fall, although of course 5-7 of those days are weekends or bank holidays. And most people take 2 (or more) weeks holiday in the summer/easter when the kids are off school. It may have escaped your notice, but there are more households in the country _without_ children than those with. Also, not everyone takes two-week holidays, kids or not. I guess if you work in retail (or hospitality) it's different, but I would be suprised if almost every one else didn't fit the above. I would suggest that if you work in just about every sector it's different., and that you're just wrong. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV: http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/ |
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On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 08:31:59 +0100, U n d e r a c h i e v e r
wrote: On 4/10/05 8:39 pm, in article . com, "Mizter T" wrote: in cash single fares on the Tubes and buses, but the BBC News story story contains the critical information on how to avoid these fares increases. And that is to ***get an Oyster card and start using the Pre Pay system to pay for single fares on the Tubes and buses***. It is that simple. Not if you get on the bus and find you are out of credit. How is this different from getting on a bus and finding you are out of money? Or if you mislay your oyster. How is this different from mislaying your wallet/purse? Or if you rarely use public transport in London at all. Cash fares are your only option; they should not be a rip off. My mother lives in Newcastle. She visits London a few times a year. She has an Oyster card (and it's registered!). It's not rocket science. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV: http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/ |
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:25:11 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
People not from London can stop complaining too. Londoners deserve cheaper fares, in fact we pay in part for the costs of the Underground through our council tax so I'm perfectly happy to no longer subsidise tourists and visitors who, for whatever reason, do not adopt Oyster. OK. Would you like to pay higher fares on other cities' public transport systems, such as the heavily-subsidised systems in German cities, or indeed Merseyrail in Liverpool, which is the second highest-subsidised per passenger mile national rail franchise in the country, and I wouldn't be surprised if higher than LUL? No, I didn't think so. Public transport is for the public, not just for local people, though the actions of some provincial bus companies (or more the inactions) may make you think otherwise. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:45:19 +0100, Paul Terry
wrote: They claim no such thing. They claim that Oyster is of no used for occasional travel to London, since pre-pay is not accepted on most of the national rail network. Correct. I also "claim" that it would be possible to modify the Oyster system by way of "vending" machines, return machines (if a disposable card is not feasible) and better instruction and explanation posters in multiple languages in order to remove the need for paper tickets at all. Some people appear to be ignoring this, and branding anyone who doesn't think the *current* Oyster system is ready for this[1] anti-Oyster. This is clearly not the case. [1] And because it isn't, feel that a punitive single fare (which is what it is) is inappropriate. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:18:50 +0100, Paul
wrote: The Dutch Strippenkaart system makes Oyster seem easy! Does it? I'd say they're about the same - Oyster wins in some cases, while the Strippenkaart does in others. Never could work them out. 1 strip or 2? 1 "base strip" plus one per zone crossed. Leaflets showing the zones are easily available, or just tell the bus driver where you're going and he'll do it for you. (Trams are more complicated but you can often talk to the driver of those, or there's a conductor). To complicate matters slightly, you can mark one as a day ticket by marking a certain number of strips (I can't recall how many) on a large one. How long does it last for, 2 fare changes, I think, which is basically a year. (This is the bit I do find complicated - an expiry date would be preferable). where's the cheapest place to buy them etc. Same price everywhere, AFAIAA, though they do come in different sizes. In general, the more strips, the cheaper. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 00:09:05 +0100, Arthur Figgis
] wrote: The Dutch Strippenkaart is in the process of being replaced by a national all-modes smart card, but I believe it is delayed because of various problems with it. Denmark has just awarded the same people a contract for a national smart card. I wonder if the new scheme will include NS trains, as the Strippenkaart doesn't, for some reason I completely fail to understand in the land of "integrated" passenger transport ticketing. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:36:06 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote: How would YOU encourage people onto Oyster? Make Oyster suitable for them, as I've detailed in other posts. Then, once that's all been done, abolish paper ticketing completely. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 19:17:33 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
An outside London ODTC is based on the travelcard price plus whatever the rail company charges to the boundary of Zone 6. The ODTC1-6 has gone up by 30p. The Zone 1 tube single doesn't even come in to the equation. There are still singles to ZONE U1 LONDN, which presumably will be based on that. There are also returns, but those (last time I checked) were the same price as the Peak Travelcard. The difference, incidentally, is that YP Railcard discount is available on singles/returns to ZONE U1 LONDN but not at all on Peak Travelcards (not even on the rail part), so last time I did a peak journey it was on one of those. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:02:39 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote: IME most people have 2 weeks off at Xmas because their employer gives them no choice. Most people I know don't. I think it depends on the industry, and MX is that more and more companies not in the manufacturing industry do not have a factory shutdown at Christmas - but the exact opposite in that they won't *allow* everyone to be off then! And most people take 2 (or more) weeks holiday in the summer/easter when the kids are off school. Only if you have kids. The rest of us who don't avoid those times like the plague. I guess if you work in retail (or hospitality) it's different, but I would be suprised if almost every one else didn't fit the above. Banking (OK, almost retail), anything that involves call centres and IT to name but three. Service industries in general do not have long-term shutdowns. People expect all-year service (except in many but not all cases 25/12) these days. Things do vary from country to country, of course. YM (in Sweden) MV, if your from address is anything to go by! Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 23:30:20 +0100, Phil Richards
wrote: At least you know about the options. I do, and I would not be averse to having an Oyster if it made sense. I rarely use buses in Milton Keynes, but I do have an MK Metro Saver card lying around for the few occasions when it does come in handy, and it did cost me a fiver (though at the time I was using buses daily). That isn't even as convenient as Oyster as sadly the only thing you can load onto it is a weekly or monthly pass, as it's quite an old technology. If you could put a tenner of "pre-pay" onto it I'd definitely do so to avoid having to fuss with change, even if the fares weren't lower. Now - will people accept I'm not anti-Oyster? The ones that get caught out will be the infrequent users, tourists etc. who fail to find out and, worse still, won't be advised by ticket sellers at stations they have a cheaper option when they fork out 3 quid for a cash single. That's what TfL/LUL need to concentrate on next. Absolutely. I would suggest they needed to do that *before* the punitive fares were proposed. That said, they have 3 months or so to get their act together... Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 23:35:34 +0100, Phil Richards
wrote: Nick Cooper wrote: Except that if you buy a book of 1st Class stamps before a price-rise for basic 1st Class, the "old price" stamps are still valid at the "new price." The same could be said about the Saver 6 tickets which could have been bought at the old price before the fares went up and used after. True. It's only a recent thing, though - I'm fairly sure that 1st and 2nd class stamps used to have the price printed on them, so if you had a load and the price went up you had to go to the Post Office and buy a load of 1 or 2p stamps to be able to use them. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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"Richard J." wrote in message . uk... That's because they're in the London Borough of Wandsworth, famous for setting a zero poll tax, and which still has a very low council tax rate. I assume that by some quirk of government funding, LBW have managed to get an extremely favourable deal. I don't think that Wandsworth gets a particularily good deal on its government funding but it is much more efficient than most councils.. Regards Sunil |
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"Arthur Figgis" ] wrote in message ... On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 18:07 +0100 (BST), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: We had that problem in Warsaw. It seemed easier to walk everywhere than work out how to buy bus and tram tickets. Many places seem to assume visitors will use taxis for everything. That's because many Americans do. And as I have posted before, IME it is common for non first language English speakers not to be able to tell the difference between the various English language countries' accents (strange as it may seem to you and I). Little kiosks called RUCH sell them. Them being sufficiently imprecise to non-Polish speakers to decide not to bother. Or the kiosks weren't open. One or the other. IIRC on some Polish trams you even need a separate ticket for your bag. You do in Milan as well. Debrecen in Hungary has excellent information on ticketing options in multiple languages at its tram stops. Unlike somewhere I've forgotten where I once went, where the tourist-specific literature was only available in the local language, which was Basque or Slovenian or something else which visitors would be pretty unlikely to speak. What I find annoying is some countries[1] insistance on translating, into multiple languages, the instructions for using the machine (put money in slot etc), which IMHO a child the age of 10 can work out for themselves and keeping the complicated zonal rules only in the home language. How on earth can I "press the button for the correct ticket for you journey" if you haven't told me how I can work out what actually is the correct ticket for my journey. When I went to Charleroi the tram ticket office wouldn't sell me a day ticket until an English-speaking native stepped in to help me. The staff were convinced that I must have thought I was in Brussels, as they thought no-one in their right mind would go to their city. The Dutch Strippenkaart is in the process of being replaced by a national all-modes smart card, but I believe it is delayed because of various problems with it. Denmark has just awarded the same people a contract for a national smart card. EDS :-( tim [1] Switzerland is top of my hit list, I think there are others. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
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People not from London can stop complaining too. Londoners deserve cheaper fares, in fact we pay in part for the costs of the Underground through our council tax so I'm perfectly happy to no longer subsidise tourists and visitors who, for whatever reason, do not adopt Oyster. OK. Would you like to pay higher fares on other cities' public transport systems, such as the heavily-subsidised systems in German cities, or indeed Merseyrail in Liverpool, which is the second highest-subsidised per passenger mile national rail franchise in the country, and I wouldn't be surprised if higher than LUL? No, I didn't think so. Public transport is for the public, not just for local people, though the actions of some provincial bus companies (or more the inactions) may make you think otherwise. In every case I can think of using foreign metro systems I have just bought whatever ticket looked like the cheapest and the quickest to acquire and haven't really researched all that much in to how the system works and what is really the best option, as I would at home. I have no doubt I have paid over the odds in many places. However I don't really care. The reason for this is that when travelling on business my employer pays and not me and when on holiday I just want to get from A to B with the least fuss. I'm sure most infrequent tourists and visitors are much the same. |
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"Nick Cooper" wrote in message ... On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:02:39 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)" wrote: IME most people have 2 weeks off at Xmas because their employer gives them no choice. Absolutely no people I know - and that cover a wide variety of jobs - gets that. Just about the closest would be employers who shutdown from XmD to NYD, which is only 8-10 days depending on when the weekends fall, although of course 5-7 of those days are weekends or bank holidays. This is exactly right. I did not say they had to use 10 days leave, but that they had a period of 2 weeks when the did not go to work. No-one is sensibly going to buy a monthly season on the 4th of December as they will not be using it from 25th to the 1st (and in many cases longer). And most people take 2 (or more) weeks holiday in the summer/easter when the kids are off school. It may have escaped your notice, but there are more households in the country _without_ children than those with. They still take holidays in 'chunks'. Also, not everyone takes two-week holidays, kids or not. Most do IME. I guess if you work in retail (or hospitality) it's different, but I would be suprised if almost every one else didn't fit the above. I would suggest that if you work in just about every sector it's different., and that you're just wrong. I work in an 'office' environment and have done so for 20 years. Almost everone in the office takes a consecutive holiday break. tim |
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"Nick Cooper" wrote in message ... On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 08:31:59 +0100, U n d e r a c h i e v e r wrote: On 4/10/05 8:39 pm, in article .com, "Mizter T" wrote: in cash single fares on the Tubes and buses, but the BBC News story story contains the critical information on how to avoid these fares increases. And that is to ***get an Oyster card and start using the Pre Pay system to pay for single fares on the Tubes and buses***. It is that simple. Not if you get on the bus and find you are out of credit. How is this different from getting on a bus and finding you are out of money? Because I can check first. Remind me. Where do I get one of these Oyster credit checkers to keep in my pocket? tim |
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As I keep saying, and several posters keep ignoring, those not
*familiar enough with London* to use Oyster. Yes this is true. The system is not properly explained to users. The signs above prepay validators in various locations with "Prepay users must touch here" are totally baffling to everyone. Even staff do not seem to have consistent knowledge about how it works. The cost benefits are not properly communicated either. I think some people cannot beleive that the "technological option" can be cheaper than buying paper tickets. How many low paid workers using the tube before 06:30 know they could be getting discounted fares by using Oyster? How has this group been targetted with marketing? How about people who do not have English as a first language? |
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On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:32:03 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
[double line-spaced] The reason for this is that when travelling on business my employer pays and not me and when on holiday I just want to get from A to B with the least fuss. I'm sure most infrequent tourists and visitors are much the same. Well, it is good for you that you have (or your employer has) enough cash not to have to worry about spending it sensibly. I, however, don't. I suspect I am not in the minority. (Anyone reading my other post of my forthcoming trip to the Far East can be reassured that I am not paying for it; I definitely could not afford to do so myself...) Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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Do TfL allow an "overdraft" of one (bus?) journey, perhaps only on
registered cards so they wouldn't have trouble getting it back? If not, it would be worth consideration. At least one of the pre-pay mobile phone companies allows for one "free" call in a given period (a couple of months I think) with no credit. If you have auto top up activated you can go into negative balance on the bus. It is corrected once you pass through a tube station barrier. According to their website they plan to add auto top up to bus and trams "soon". |
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On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:42:26 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
The cost benefits are not properly communicated either. I think some people cannot beleive that the "technological option" can be cheaper than buying paper tickets. How many low paid workers using the tube before 06:30 know they could be getting discounted fares by using Oyster? How has this group been targetted with marketing? How about people who do not have English as a first language? So, we're now on the same page - having gone via most of the Tube system, hopefully using an Oystercard to keep the fare down :) Do you, then, agree that this not-insignificant matter should be sorted out *before* punitive fares on paper ticketing are introduced? Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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"Neil Williams" wrote in message
... True. It's only a recent thing, though - I'm fairly sure that 1st and 2nd class stamps used to have the price printed on them, so if you had a load and the price went up you had to go to the Post Office and buy a load of 1 or 2p stamps to be able to use them. Yes, stamps inscribed 1st and 2nd were introduced in 1990. So, it depends on your definition of "recent" I guess. -- Richard |
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On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 16:57:59 +0000 (UTC), "Richard Rundle"
wrote: Yes, stamps inscribed 1st and 2nd were introduced in 1990. So, it depends on your definition of "recent" I guess. They weren't universal, I think. I have had stamps (1st/2nd) marked with the price much more recently than that, as I recall. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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"Phil Richards" wrote in message
.. . The W7 (Finsbury Park to Muswell Hill) went cash free about 4 years ago as a trial, successful it has been though to be fair it is a short route with high frequency. I can't see the whole of the capital going to road side machines, however what's needed is a steady introduction at strategic stops. There is no need to make the whole of London prepaid only, just the well-used stops. There would be no confusion for passengers, because the bus stops that had machines would be prepaid-only, and those that didn't wouldn't. What I find bizarre is that the W7 machines are, or at least were, W7-only. Why allow people to buy tickets on a 144 or W3 at a stop that has a ticket machine for the W7? -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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The cost benefits are not properly communicated either. I think some
people cannot beleive that the "technological option" can be cheaper than buying paper tickets. How many low paid workers using the tube before 06:30 know they could be getting discounted fares by using Oyster? How has this group been targetted with marketing? How about people who do not have English as a first language? So, we're now on the same page - having gone via most of the Tube system, hopefully using an Oystercard to keep the fare down :) Do you, then, agree that this not-insignificant matter should be sorted out *before* punitive fares on paper ticketing are introduced? The "educational marketing" campaign has been lacking in many areas. That said, there is also a significant group of people who will never come round to the idea of electronic ticketing unless they are forced to investigate it by some shock - such as bus fares that cost more than a pound or a tube ride from Bow Road to Mile End that costs £3.00. Small increased have not provided enough incentive. One can only hope that this reality is communicated properly by January 2006 to enough people. The phased implementation has been at a steady pace although lack of function has been annoying such as using prepay before the buses went live, before capping came in and before auto top up. Seeing how difficult it is for some people (and staff) to grasp how each new feature works makes it clear that it is the right approach. It is not desirable for too many features to go live at once while at the same time the way the tube is run needs to become more cost effective as quickly as possible for the good of everyone. If it becomes too expensive to run the extra "funding" (tax) can only come from one place. So basically that is why I support moving along as quickly as possible with a phased feature roll-out and why creating "incentive" fares at this stage is important. |
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"asdf" wrote in message ... On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 16:46:20 GMT, (Neil Williams) wrote: Do TfL allow an "overdraft" of one (bus?) journey, perhaps only on registered cards so they wouldn't have trouble getting it back? Surely the whole point of the £3 deposit is that it covers a potential "overdraft"? So there should be no problem with allowing it for unregistered cards too. I assumed it represented the cost of the blank card. tim |
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On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:35:16 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote: Do TfL allow an "overdraft" of one (bus?) journey, perhaps only on registered cards so they wouldn't have trouble getting it back? Surely the whole point of the £3 deposit is that it covers a potential "overdraft"? So there should be no problem with allowing it for unregistered cards too. I assumed it represented the cost of the blank card. I assumed it was because the gates would have to let you through to begin your journey if you had at least £1.10/£1.70 on your card, but you could make a journey costing up to £3.50 (or more if the Amersham branch is involved). |
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"asdf" wrote in message ... On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:35:16 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)" wrote: Do TfL allow an "overdraft" of one (bus?) journey, perhaps only on registered cards so they wouldn't have trouble getting it back? Surely the whole point of the £3 deposit is that it covers a potential "overdraft"? So there should be no problem with allowing it for unregistered cards too. I assumed it represented the cost of the blank card. I assumed it was because the gates would have to let you through to begin your journey if you had at least £1.10/£1.70 on your card, but you could make a journey costing up to £3.50 (or more if the Amersham branch is involved). good point. And you can get onto the drain and then onto the Central line with no credit at all, even if you do 'touch'. tim |
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Surely the whole point of the £3 deposit is that it covers a potential
"overdraft"? So there should be no problem with allowing it for unregistered cards too. I assumed it represented the cost of the blank card. I assumed it was because the gates would have to let you through to begin your journey if you had at least £1.10/£1.70 on your card, but you could make a journey costing up to £3.50 (or more if the Amersham branch is involved). The £3 is just an incentive to reuse the card and not throw it away. |
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On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:35:16 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote: I assumed it represented the cost of the blank card. As did I, as MK Metro charge gbp5 for their contact smartcards (non-refundable). Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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In message , Neil Williams
writes On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 13:45:19 +0100, Paul Terry wrote: They claim no such thing. They claim that Oyster is of no used for occasional travel to London, since pre-pay is not accepted on most of the national rail network. Correct. I also "claim" that it would be possible to modify the Oyster system by way of "vending" machines, return machines (if a disposable card is not feasible) and better instruction and explanation posters in multiple languages in order to remove the need for paper tickets at all. But more importantly you need to persuade TOCs in London to accept pre-pay Oyster in the first place. Some people appear to be ignoring this, and branding anyone who doesn't think the *current* Oyster system is ready for this Nope. I'd love to use pre-pay Oyster on NR. But at the moment is as useless as trying to use a Nectar Card to pay for the fare. -- Paul Terry |
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Neil Williams wrote:
I wonder if the new scheme will include NS trains, as the Strippenkaart doesn't, for some reason I completely fail to understand in the land of "integrated" passenger transport ticketing. Are you sure about this? I have used one on NS journeys within Amsterdam some years ago; maybe the system has changed since then? -- John Ray, London UK. |
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In message , Nick Cooper
writes On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:02:39 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)" wrote: IME most people have 2 weeks off at Xmas because their employer gives them no choice. Absolutely no people I know - and that cover a wide variety of jobs - gets that. This is getting off-topic, but every one of the dozen or so companies I deal with totally shut down for some two weeks between about December 22nd and January 5th. Most of my colleagues in teaching had a longer break, especially those in the university sector. -- Paul Terry |
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On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 20:31:53 +0100, Paul Terry
wrote: But more importantly you need to persuade TOCs in London to accept pre-pay Oyster in the first place. I think we should go for a true single Verbundtarif across Tube and train, and also possibly something including through travel onto buses. That wouldn't just require persuasion, it'd require legislation. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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