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In message , "tim (moved to sweden)"
writes What I find annoying is some countries[1] insistance on translating, into multiple languages, the instructions for using the machine (put money in slot etc), which IMHO a child the age of 10 can work out for themselves and keeping the complicated zonal rules only in the home language. How on earth can I "press the button for the correct ticket for you journey" if you haven't told me how I can work out what actually is the correct ticket for my journey. Glad it's not just me that gets annoyed by that! (Cologne was doing that when I first visited it in my teens [1975].) -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:22:04 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote: Although my balance always seems to come up on 'bus readers, only once or twice have I seen it come up on a tube gate reader. I thought at one time that that was because I's just topped up but maybe there's another reason for its apparently randomly doing this? On the newer ticket gates, it appears on the screen. On the older ones, it appears on the LCD display by the yellow Oyster pad. |
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In message , asdf
writes On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:22:04 +0100, Ian Jelf wrote: Although my balance always seems to come up on 'bus readers, only once or twice have I seen it come up on a tube gate reader. I thought at one time that that was because I's just topped up but maybe there's another reason for its apparently randomly doing this? On the newer ticket gates, it appears on the screen. On the older ones, it appears on the LCD display by the yellow Oyster pad. Thanks! I knew there'd be an explanation and that someone here would have it. I've only noticed the newer kind of gates and the apparently "random" nature of this just reflects my very random use of the Tube! -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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Ian Jelf typed
I think that the concept of cheaper fares on Pre Pay is something very difficult to explain to the casual traveller. Indeed, even the thought of having to buy tickets from a roadside machine before climbing on a 'bus seems to put off many of my clients! Would it be possible for you to buy a 'job lot' of unregistered Oyster PrePay, with, say £5 credit on them for you to sell on to your clients, after some explanation. There would be some faff factor, but possibly less in the long run. Those of your clients with Internet access could be advised to visit the TfL website in advance, so they understand the system a bit better. Slapping an Oyster on a reader should not be daunting. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
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On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:27:05 +0100, Ian Jelf
wrote: In message , "tim (moved to sweden)" writes What I find annoying is some countries[1] insistance on translating, into multiple languages, the instructions for using the machine (put money in slot etc), which IMHO a child the age of 10 can work out for themselves and keeping the complicated zonal rules only in the home language. How on earth can I "press the button for the correct ticket for you journey" if you haven't told me how I can work out what actually is the correct ticket for my journey. Glad it's not just me that gets annoyed by that! (Cologne was doing that when I first visited it in my teens [1975].) Antwerpen did it to me... The ticket machines on the Grenoble tramway say "Croydon Tramlink wishes you a good journey" if you select the English option! -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
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In message , Arthur Figgis
] writes The ticket machines on the Grenoble tramway say "Croydon Tramlink wishes you a good journey" if you select the English option! ROFL! :-)) -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes Ian Jelf typed I think that the concept of cheaper fares on Pre Pay is something very difficult to explain to the casual traveller. Indeed, even the thought of having to buy tickets from a roadside machine before climbing on a 'bus seems to put off many of my clients! Would it be possible for you to buy a 'job lot' of unregistered Oyster PrePay, with, say £5 credit on them for you to sell on to your clients, after some explanation. There would be some faff factor, but possibly less in the long run. Well, given that I have as a broad average 10 -50 people in any given group on any day (not all in London, though), that would involve typing up between £50 and £250 tied up in such cards at any given time. And - to be honest - I suspect that few people would be interested. Those of your clients with Internet access could be advised to visit the TfL website in advance, I don't usually have any contact with clients in advance so that wouldn't work. so they understand the system a bit better. Slapping an Oyster on a reader should not be daunting. You'd be surprised, Helen! Interestingly, people from overseas often tend to be, much more at home with London's transport system than people from other parts of the UK. My group this weekend were on what was essentially a theatre break and many of them do the same thing several times a year. And yet I estimate that 80% of them went no further than they could walk from Park Lane this morning (bearing in mind we dropped them off there at about 1030 and picked them up at 1500). Coming back to the coach, four ladies managed to get lost between Hyde Park Corner and the coach which was parked near the new "Animals at War" monument near Upper Brook Street. Last night two people tried to "latch on" to another (much more resourceful) couple because they were nervous about my instructions to get to the Dominion Theatre in Tottenham Court Road from the drop off in Shaftesbury Avenue, despite my careful explanation. Although it may seem otherwise, I'm not painting these people out to be dim or stupid but just trying to explain that what probably seems commonplace to people on utl can seem very, very unfamiliar to people who are strangers to London. And yes, slapping an Oyster Card on a yellow disc *would* intimidate some! -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes From Jan 2006 they would both be £3 each, total £6, or £1.50 and £2 plus £3 for the Oyster, total £6.50, plus "cost" for an Oyster reader to know if I've got enough credit on it the next time I use it months later. Terrific! What a prat. I'm a pensioner who lives in the Lake district and travel to London to see family and friends, I don't know from one week to the next when I'll be invited down again, but I realise the convenience Oyster gives me and have had one for some time now. I don't queue for tickets at bus stops or tube stations and the capping means I always get the best value even if I get on the wrong bus, have to get off and retrace my steps, it doesn't cost me a penny extra. Further each time I enter a tube station if the machine is clear for topping up, I just go to it. Put my card to the reader and it gives me my balance. If you're graduate material then the standards in this country have certainly gone down the drain. -- Clive |
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Arthur Figgis ] wrote [...] language. How on earth can I "press the button for the correct ticket for you journey" if you haven't told me how I can work out what actually is the correct ticket for my journey. Glad it's not just me that gets annoyed by that! (Cologne was doing that when I first visited it in my teens [1975].) Antwerpen did it to me... The ticket machines on the Grenoble tramway say "Croydon Tramlink wishes you a good journey" if you select the English option! Hee ! When I last looked the London leaflets were just translations of the English ones and did not feel it necessary to explain that underground tickets were inclusive of any changes but a new bus ticket was needed for each bus taken. Has this yet been considered ? -- Mike D |
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In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes You can have one-day travelcard fares from the Lake District? I just use pre-pay which is I believe where this thread started. -- Clive |
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On 7/10/05 12:31 pm, in article ,
"John Ray" wrote: I don't think that a cash fare of GBP3 is intended to be seen as reasonable. If it isn't, and I think it's not, it will not be lawful It is set at that level to encourage people to use alternative methods of payment. I'm not sure that's a good enough reason to justify very high cash fares. -- U n d e r a c h i e v e r |
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On 10 Oct 2005 00:18:31 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote: When I last looked the London leaflets were just translations of the English ones and did not feel it necessary to explain that underground tickets were inclusive of any changes but a new bus ticket was needed for each bus taken. Good point. While this is probably self-explanatory to most British people, where transfer single tickets are the exception rather than the rule on buses, it may be confusing to Americans who can ask for a transfer, and Germans who in a lot of cases (e.g. Hamburg) can do a multimodal journey involving several modes and changes on one single ticket. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:04:12 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote: Last time I was there - I forget the date, but when the tour reached Berlin, the Wall was about to fall - the welcome pack handed out at the hotel included your first tram ticket. Good idea. Maybe hotels could "rent out" (for the 3 quid deposit) Oystercards? Hamburg had an interesting idea when I was there - if you were going to a concert the concert ticket itself would often be valid for travel to and from the event, and if you stayed in some hotels your key or room card would be valid as a ticket! Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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In message , Chris Tolley
writes That I disagree with the assertion and repeating it does not give me any additional evidence to consider. OK, let's look at a specific example: Bus to Richmond station, SWT to Waterloo, tube to office. The same coming back. That costs £8 on a one-day Travelcard. Using Oyster pre-pay, the two bus journeys would come to £2, the two tube journeys would clock up £3.40. Add that to the cost of a day return on SWT for the bit not covered by Oyster, which is £5.90. Total using Oyster comes to £11.30. Have I miscalculated, or does Oyster strike you as "not a sensible option" for occasional use when it pushes the total cost to nearly 50% more than a travelcard? -- Paul Terry |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:29:15 +0100, U n d e r a c h i e v e r
wrote: On 7/10/05 12:31 pm, in article , "John Ray" wrote: I don't think that a cash fare of GBP3 is intended to be seen as reasonable. If it isn't, and I think it's not, it will not be lawful No? Good luck with your legal challenge. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:29:15 +0100, U n d e r a c h i e v e r
wrote: I don't think that a cash fare of GBP3 is intended to be seen as reasonable. If it isn't, and I think it's not, it will not be lawful Eh? What law is broken? |
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Paul Terry wrote:
OK, let's look at a specific example: Bus to Richmond station, SWT to Waterloo, tube to office. The same coming back. That costs £8 on a one-day Travelcard. Using Oyster pre-pay, the two bus journeys would come to £2, the two tube journeys would clock up £3.40. Add that to the cost of a day return on SWT for the bit not covered by Oyster, which is £5.90. Total using Oyster comes to £11.30. Have I miscalculated, or does Oyster strike you as "not a sensible option" for occasional use when it pushes the total cost to nearly 50% more than a travelcard? One of us doesn't seem to understand what the word "option" means. I take it to mean that one can use it when it's to one's advantage to do so. It sometimes is (even if not here) so it's a good option to have. Had the post I was responding to said "it's not sensible for this to be the only option", then I wouldn't have any reason to disagree. I'm sure there are plenty of occasional travellers who can benefit from Oyster. |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 08:55:54 +0100, Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Chris Tolley writes That I disagree with the assertion and repeating it does not give me any additional evidence to consider. OK, let's look at a specific example: Bus to Richmond station, SWT to Waterloo, tube to office. The same coming back. That costs £8 on a one-day Travelcard. And, realistically, unless you live near a shop selling ODTs, you'll be paying for the first bus journey so you can buy the ODT at Richmond. Total cost £9 or £9.50. Using Oyster pre-pay, the two bus journeys would come to £2, the two tube journeys would clock up £3.40. Add that to the cost of a day return on SWT for the bit not covered by Oyster, which is £5.90. Total using Oyster comes to £11.30. Have I miscalculated, or does Oyster strike you as "not a sensible option" for occasional use when it pushes the total cost to nearly 50% more than a travelcard? |
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My need, and that of people all over the Home Counties, for singles is very limited, two tickets so far this year. A one-day travel card (with a Network Card) is only £1.65 more than a day return to King's Cross and a Saver return to Zones 1 & 2 £1.20 more than a Saver to King's Cross. So prepay isn't usable for millions of such travellers. And it is not supposed to be. It is for Londonders not "people all over the Home counties" |
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In ,
Colin Rosenstiel typed: My need, and that of people all over the Home Counties, for singles is very limited, two tickets so far this year. A one-day travel card (with a Network Card) is only £1.65 more than a day return to King's Cross and a Saver return to Zones 1 & 2 £1.20 more than a Saver to King's Cross. So prepay isn't usable for millions of such travellers. So, carry on buying your ODTC. You don't need Oyster Pre-Pay. Why are you worrying? -- Bob |
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In message , Marc Brett
writes And, realistically, unless you live near a shop selling ODTs, you'll be paying for the first bus journey so you can buy the ODT at Richmond. Always possible, but there are ticket agents close to most main bus stops here - my local one is next to the bus stop. Total cost £9 or £9.50. Still cheaper than using an Oyster. -- Paul Terry |
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In message , Chris Tolley
writes One of us doesn't seem to understand what the word "option" means. I take it to mean that one can use it when it's to one's advantage to do so. I take it to mean that if travel using Oyster is more expensive than the same travel taken without it, it is not a sensible option. It sometimes is (even if not here) Of course it is! If Oyster was NEVER the cheaper option, what would be the point in providing it? Had the post I was responding to said "it's not sensible for this to be the only option", then I wouldn't have any reason to disagree. Nobody is suggesting that Oyster is the ONLY option - that would be nonsense given that it is unusable on most of the NR network in London. Look back at the thread and you'll see I was responding to TDK's statement: Get an Oyster card and you can start saving when you do. That's not the case for the type of journey I most commonly take into London, for which Oyster would be a singularly bad option. -- Paul Terry |
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In message , Paul Terry
writes Still cheaper than using an Oyster. Is your personal Oyster not capped? -- Clive |
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Ian Jelf wrote in uk.transport.london on Sun, 9 Oct 2005 21:22:04
+0100 : I think that the concept of cheaper fares on Pre Pay is something very difficult to explain to the casual traveller. This is, IME, very true. We've reached the conclusion that we're going to have to get a couple of prepay Oyster cards to give to our out-of-town visitors so they can get out and about with us. Indeed, even the thought of having to buy tickets from a roadside machine before climbing on a 'bus seems to put off many of my clients! The arcane art of getting on buses has been something that seems to elude even people who have lived and worked in London for most of their life. One friend who has just retired regards the red omnibus as the work of the devil, despite having a strong preference for public transport in general. I don't know why this is; until I lived in London there were lots of things/locations I didn't know about, spending many a happy hour going to Notting Hill Gate to take the Circle Line back to Paddington until I discovered where Lancaster Gate was. But in the general absence of a tube route, I was still willing to strike out and take a chance that a bus would get me where I wanted to go, or at the worst that if I over-shot I could get one coming back, without being eaten by a lurking grue. -- hike - a walking tour or outing, esp. of the self-conscious kind Chambers 20th Century Dictionary |
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Paul Terry wrote:
Look back at the thread and you'll see I was responding to TDK's statement: Get an Oyster card and you can start saving when you do. That's not the case for the type of journey I most commonly take into London, for which Oyster would be a singularly bad option. And I was responding to *your* statement that "Oyster is not a sensible option for those who use National Rail and who don't have to commute daily." It may not be an optimum choice for your particular journey, but that does not mean it is unsuitable for everyone encompassed by "those who use National Rail and who don't have to commute daily." -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p12161567.html (156 464 at Liverpool Lime St, still in the green stripe livery, 2004) |
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Clive typed
In message , Colin Rosenstiel writes From Jan 2006 they would both be £3 each, total £6, or £1.50 and £2 plus £3 for the Oyster, total £6.50, plus "cost" for an Oyster reader to know if I've got enough credit on it the next time I use it months later. Terrific! What a prat. I'm a pensioner who lives in the Lake district and travel to London to see family and friends, I don't know from one week to the next when I'll be invited down again, but I realise the convenience Oyster gives me and have had one for some time now. I don't queue for tickets at bus stops or tube stations and the capping means I always get the best value even if I get on the wrong bus, have to get off and retrace my steps, it doesn't cost me a penny extra. Further each time I enter a tube station if the machine is clear for topping up, I just go to it. Put my card to the reader and it gives me my balance. If you're graduate material then the standards in this country have certainly gone down the drain. Oyster is right for you, without a doubt. The problems arise if your journeys involve National Rail. If this is the case, buying a One Day Travelcard would make economic sense. Colin takes a bike or has a Travelcard on his rail ticket, when he visits London, so Oyster is not his best option. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
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On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:47:30 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
"Totally"? "Everyone"? Not even TfL or NR seem to know how the validators on the Thameslink platforms at London Bridge, Kings Cross TL etc. are supposed to be used without getting an unresolved journey so "totally" and "everyone" is pretty fair. Also when changing from DLR to Tube or National Rail, it is not clear to many people that you have to touch the DLR validator and then touch in to the tube/NR even though its not the end/start of your journey. Getting it wrong will mean getting charged twice or possibly £5 if you were unlucky enough to start or end at a terminus. This could all be cured by more detailed instructions above the validators. The current "Prepay users must touch here" is not good enough - and doesn't take in to account prepay extensions. Season ticket holders who have only ever used seasons are unlikely to see themselves as "prepay users". You understand it. And so, now, do I. So that knocks out "Totally" :-) |
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In message , Clive
writes In message , Paul Terry writes Still cheaper than using an Oyster. Is your personal Oyster not capped? You cannot use pre-pay Oyster on South-West Trains (or on most other National Rail services in London), so the only part of the journey covered by Oyster is the bus and tube journeys. That comes to £5.90, which is well below the £8 cap for peak-time travel in both Zones 1-4. -- Paul Terry |
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On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:52:58 +0100, Marc Brett
wrote: And, realistically, unless you live near a shop selling ODTs, you'll be paying for the first bus journey so you can buy the ODT at Richmond. Total cost £9 or £9.50. A bit weak. Your local newsagent sells them. In advance, if required. |
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"Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:47:30 +0100, "TKD" wrote: "Totally"? "Everyone"? Not even TfL or NR seem to know how the validators on the Thameslink platforms at London Bridge, Kings Cross TL etc. are supposed to be used without getting an unresolved journey so "totally" and "everyone" is pretty fair. Also when changing from DLR to Tube or National Rail, it is not clear to many people that you have to touch the DLR validator and then touch in to the tube/NR even though its not the end/start of your journey. Getting it wrong will mean getting charged twice or possibly £5 if you were unlucky enough to start or end at a terminus. This could all be cured by more detailed instructions above the validators. The current "Prepay users must touch here" is not good enough - and doesn't take in to account prepay extensions. Season ticket holders who have only ever used seasons are unlikely to see themselves as "prepay users". You understand it. And so, now, do I. So that knocks out "Totally" :-) Yes we both now have the DLR interchange all figured out. But using Thameslink with prepay and being charged correctly (and let out of the barriers of London Bridge!) is still beyond me. |
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"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , Clive writes In message , Paul Terry writes Still cheaper than using an Oyster. Is your personal Oyster not capped? You cannot use pre-pay Oyster on South-West Trains (or on most other National Rail services in London), so the only part of the journey covered by Oyster is the bus and tube journeys. That comes to £5.90, which is well below the £8 cap for peak-time travel in both Zones 1-4. You would come under the Zone 1 cap as all your tube use is in Zone 1. Bus journeys ignore zones and are included in any capped tube price even if the bus journey was in a totally different zone to the tube cap. Not sure what that makes your cap without looking it up. |
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In ,
TKD typed: But using Thameslink with prepay and being charged correctly (and let out of the barriers of London Bridge!) is still beyond me. Presuming that you have 'touched in' at an appropraite Thameslink station, when you arrive at London Bridge 'touch out' on the platform. 'Touching out' again on the pad on the exit gates will then allow you to exit. Works for me (nearly) every time. ;-) -- Bob |
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But using
Thameslink with prepay and being charged correctly (and let out of the barriers of London Bridge!) is still beyond me. Presuming that you have 'touched in' at an appropraite Thameslink station, when you arrive at London Bridge 'touch out' on the platform. 'Touching out' again on the pad on the exit gates will then allow you to exit. Works for me (nearly) every time. It hasn't worked for me once. The last piece of advice I got was to touch in at the barriers at Kings Cross TL and touch the validator on the platform. When arriving at London Bridge, touch the validator on the platform and then touch out through the barriers (so touch-in/out twice at each end). Last time I did this the validator at London Bridge came up with an error and when I tried the barriers they would not open. The member of staff just waved me through. This caused an unresolved journey and the capping didn't work. After an quick email to "ask oyster" the refund was automatically credited to my card when I passed through my local station - which was mildly more impressive than receiving a cheque for £1.70 which was usual practice before. |
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asdf wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 17:57:58 +0100, "Sunil Sood" wrote: So if you were to buy a ticket from Wimbledon on your Oyster card you would receive a National Rail discount if due as well? You would receive the same discount, if any, as holders of SWT paper Travelcard seasons. Small clarification. The discount is only when you *renew* a ticket. -- Paul |
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