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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:58:02 +0100, Paul
wrote: James Farrar wrote: On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:36:00 +0100, Paul paulroberthill_NOSPAM wrote: If you use a travelcard on national rail stick to a paper ticket. With Oyster you pay *more* money. What a con. If you buy your Travelcard on Oyster from South West Trains (not sure about other TOCs) they give you the same discount for poor performance that you'd get with their paper version. How many SWT stations in London have the facility to sell Oyster cards? It's only 2 or 3. Same for SET. If you care about the discount, you'll go out of your way once a year to buy your Travelcard. I buy monthly (as I think the majority of people do). An annual Z1-5 travelcard is a lot of money to pay in one lump sum. So you're already choosing to pay more. I just looked at uswitch.com and it gave me a whole list of 12-month loans that the monthly payment is less than a monthly Travelcard (using the example of a Z1-5 as quoted). And that assumes that your employer doesn't offer interest-free loans for such a purpose. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:36:02 +0100, "Chris" wrote:
From: http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/66 "The DfT recently specified that TfL's zonal fares must be rolled out to all rail services within London by 2007, with a phased approach being taken to achieve this with an individual train company at a time." And this is taken from tfl's latest board meeting minutes last month: TfL's proposal to further integrate Oyster pre-pay on the National Rail Network has been subject to continuing negotiations with Train Operating Companies (TOC's) and DfT. The work is not on schedule and implementation in 2007 is no longer achievable. Looks like we could be in for a long wait. If it's going to be introduced one TOC at a time, as mentioned above, any idea which TOCs might be first, and when we might see it happen? Do all TOCs have to have agreed together to accept pre-pay before it can be rolled out on any of them? |
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Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:29:49 GMT, Chris Tolley But what is the principle? It's effectively no different from buying a book of ten stamps when you only have an immediate need for one, is it? You are not penalised for buying one stamp on its own instead. The price of a book of 12 stamps is 12 times the price of one. For the life of me, I can't see how either of those comments relates to the discussion in hand. If you want to make a single journey with Oyster, how are you penalised? If you make a multiple journey, then Oyster can give you a discount compared with buying individual tickets through the capping process. The point I was making about the purchase of a stamp book was in light of your earlier comment about losing interest on a few quid. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9680306.html (81 001 on an evening duty at Birmingham New Street in 1979) |
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"Steve M" wrote in message
... I have a friend who won't get an Oyster card because she doesn't want "them" to know where she's been and what she's been doing. Not even an unregistered pre-pay card... Presumably she's on benefit and working, in which case the new fares will claw back some money from her. My objection to Oyster is the way it fines you every time you don't concentrate. I have enough pressure to concentrate when I'm working without having that in my spare time too. -- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes |
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In message , at 13:48:31 on Thu,
6 Oct 2005, John Rowland remarked: My objection to Oyster is the way it fines you every time you don't concentrate. That's because you are guilty until proved innocent. I agree about the concentrating, by the way. I always seem to forget to touch in or out at some stage when using the DLR (the pads are in a very non-obvious place at the station I travel to in docklands) and I've arrived at Bank before now to discover the pads on the exit of the DLR weren't working. What is one supposed to do then? -- Roland Perry |
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"James Farrar" wrote in message ... On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:58:02 +0100, Paul wrote: James Farrar wrote: On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:36:00 +0100, Paul paulroberthill_NOSPAM wrote: If you use a travelcard on national rail stick to a paper ticket. With Oyster you pay *more* money. What a con. If you buy your Travelcard on Oyster from South West Trains (not sure about other TOCs) they give you the same discount for poor performance that you'd get with their paper version. How many SWT stations in London have the facility to sell Oyster cards? It's only 2 or 3. Same for SET. If you care about the discount, you'll go out of your way once a year to buy your Travelcard. I buy monthly (as I think the majority of people do). An annual Z1-5 travelcard is a lot of money to pay in one lump sum. So you're already choosing to pay more. No you are not. Anyone with any sense does not buy a monthly pass to cover their 2 week xmas and summer break and you only need buy 11 monthly passes (or 10 monthlys and 4 weeklies) I just looked at uswitch.com and it gave me a whole list of 12-month loans that the monthly payment is less than a monthly Travelcard (using the example of a Z1-5 as quoted). but is it less than 11? tim |
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Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article , (Tim Bray) wrote: Colin Rosenstiel wrote: At any time? I expect a receipt when I part with cash. If I pay by credit card I expect a transaction voucher. When you feed cash into the machine, you press the receipt button and it gives you one. I had these into work for expenses. And the machines tell me what the Oyster single fares are, do they? On the leaflet, next to the machine. That's not a receipt for the fare paid, just the money put on the card which might then be used for some other purpose. Don't they teach anyone accountancy these days? I think you mean bureaucracy. Accountants some years ago didn't seem to mind. It was accepted that generally you wouldn't have receipts for public transport fares, especially on railways where single tickets were collected at the end of the journey. Do all Tube ticket machines offer receipts? The old ones certainly didn't. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:48:31 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote: I have a friend who won't get an Oyster card because she doesn't want "them" to know where she's been and what she's been doing. Not even an unregistered pre-pay card... Presumably she's on benefit and working, What a ridiculous statement. |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:43:40 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote: I just looked at uswitch.com and it gave me a whole list of 12-month loans that the monthly payment is less than a monthly Travelcard (using the example of a Z1-5 as quoted). but is it less than 11? It's fixed at a value of around 10.4. |
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"asdf" wrote in message ... On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:43:40 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)" wrote: I just looked at uswitch.com and it gave me a whole list of 12-month loans that the monthly payment is less than a monthly Travelcard (using the example of a Z1-5 as quoted). but is it less than 11? It's fixed at a value of around 10.4. I know, but the claim was: including the interest an anuual was still less than 12 monthlys, But is it (inclusing the interest) less than 11? tim |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:19:49 +0100, Phil Richards
wrote: Neil Williams wrote: But what is the principle? It's effectively no different from buying a book of ten stamps when you only have an immediate need for one, is it? You are not penalised for buying one stamp on its own instead. The price of a book of 12 stamps is 12 times the price of one. The point Chris is trying to make is that like Oyster, it is for convenience. The only difference is that TfL are offering you a financial benefit as well as convenience with Oyster whilst the Royal Mail aren't with stamp books. Except that if you buy a book of 1st Class stamps before a price-rise for basic 1st Class, the "old price" stamps are still valid at the "new price." -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV: http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/ |
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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 01:10:17 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote: I don't have an Oyster. For the small amount that I use public transport these days, it wouldn't make that much sense. It makes sense when the saving over cash fares exceeds £3. Currently this happens after about 10 journeys. In the New Year it will be considerably fewer. Look at it this way. They COULD have announced "No more cash fares". Instead, you will still be able to pay cash. But at a hefty premium. And for those of us who don't take a stance against Oyster, many fares will go DOWN! Hurrah! I listened to an East End mum railing against the new free passes for schoolkids recently. It was a quite unacceptable imposition that her daughter would have to take proof of her age to the Post Office and pay a small fee. She couldn't quite explain how else the ticket would seek out her daughter though :-) |
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On 5 Oct 2005 04:04:20 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:
Nope. An Oyster loaded with pre-pay automatically acts as a ODT. Except that most National Rail stations within the ODT zone won't read it :-( Lawrence, you've misunderstood the situation somewhat. An Oyster card - when used in it's Pre Pay guise - will be capped at the price of a ODTC if it's used enough during a particular day - but it does *not* become an ODTC, and can only be used on National Rail routes that accept Pre Pay (and the majority of NR routes in London don't accept Pre Pay). Isn't that exactly what I said? |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:19:49 +0100, Phil Richards
wrote: The point Chris is trying to make is that like Oyster, it is for convenience. The only difference is that TfL are offering you a financial benefit as well as convenience with Oyster whilst the Royal Mail aren't with stamp books. I'd agree with that up until now. For the new Tube fare, AFAIAC, they are offering a significant financial *disbenefit* in the form of an unreasonably[1] high fare. Compare it with, for instance, the Post Office raising the price of a first class stamp to gbp1 if bought individually, or the current price if bought in a book of 12, for which one must give a gbp3 deposit for the return of the empty book. I know it's not a perfect comparison, but it makes one think. [1] I fail to see how anyone can consider, in itself, gbp3 as a reasonable fare for a short-distance Tube single. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:10:01 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: New York subways also have a mag-stripe card which you can load with money for several journeys. One disadvantage for the infrequent traveller (and tourist) is that the credit expires after a year. ISTR that a Dutch Strippenkaart expires after two fare increases (or something similar). Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 09:13:06 +0100, Arthur Figgis
] wrote: Kuala Lumpur did that when I went. You got the final trip cheap if there wasn't enough credit remaining on the throw-away card. Of course, the two different metros in KL didn't accept each other's tickets :-) (though I think that's been changed now) I'll check it out when I'm there[1] in a couple of weeks (I jest not). [1] Chiang Mai - Bangkok - Hat Yai - Butterworth - Kuala Lumpur - Singapore over 3 weeks, mostly by train but a bit by bus, with a number of stopovers in various places. Not my usual European haunt but I'm really looking forward to it! Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:38:02 +0100, Paul
wrote: I have a sneaking suspicion that TFLs long term aim is to get rid of travelcards altogether and move everyone on to pre-pay oysters (with the daily cap thing still applying). If everything went on Oyster, it would make sense to revise the fares structure completely, removing period tickets and replacing it with some kind of discounting, for example giving a specific discount in the event that a certain amount is spent in a month, for example, or alternatively (and this may be easier to implement) offering a certain amount of "free" travel when topping up with a large amount. For example, you could get gbp10 of top-up for gbp8, or gbp30 for gbp40, or something similar. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 11:24:53 GMT, Chris Tolley
wrote: If you want to make a single journey with Oyster, how are you penalised? If it's a very infrequent one, by having 3 quid tied up in the card, or by having to queue at the ticket office twice, one to get the card loaded with a single fare, and one to give it back and get your 3 quid returned. Incidentally, I don't find the idea of ripping off tourists and non-Londoners (which has been mentioned as a target) remotely acceptable. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 21:38:30 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote: Look at it this way. They COULD have announced "No more cash fares". And if they had, they'd have had to improve the Oyster issuing facilities, e.g. by providing issuing machines, else there'd be massive queues at ticket offices. Instead, they copped out and introduced unreasonably high single fares. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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Paul wrote in
: Mizter T wrote: TfL would love the Oyster Pre Pay system to go London-wide and be rolled out across the whole National Rail network in the capital. I have a sneaking suspicion that TFLs long term aim is to get rid of travelcards altogether and move everyone on to pre-pay oysters (with the daily cap thing still applying). Wasn't the original idea to do this from day one but TfL rather forgot about National Rail and just how complex the various fare "structures" in London now are? - if your journey starts on a bus pre-pay capping is a vast improvement on the existing system as you no longer need know in advance when you are going to travel. |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:39:52 +0000 (UTC), David Jackman
wrote: Wasn't the original idea to do this from day one but TfL rather forgot about National Rail and just how complex the various fare "structures" in London now are? Quite possibly. I think a pre-requisite of NR Pre-Pay is a true Verbundtarif, which even London doesn't have yet. I will be interested to see what happens in GMPTEland when the "Readycard" (I think that was what they were calling it) is introduced, given the complicated mess of bus fares there. if your journey starts on a bus pre-pay capping is a vast improvement on the existing system as you no longer need know in advance when you are going to travel. Agreed. I'm not anti-Oyster, incidentally. I'd have one if it made sense for me to do so; it doesn't as I only ever go to London on outboundary day Travelcards. I just don't think the approach that has been taken is an appropriate one, certainly not with a gbp3 Zone 1 single. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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Neil Williams wrote:
Incidentally, I don't find the idea of ripping off tourists and non-Londoners (which has been mentioned as a target) remotely acceptable. Neither do I. But then nor do I find it remotely likely either. Whenever I've travelled in foreign parts, the local tourist publicity has always been informative about how to get the most out of local public transport. I think you are tilting at windmills. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632874.html (A 33/1+4-TC combination at London Waterloo: 33 104, 28 Mar 1981) |
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On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 18:43:40 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote: "James Farrar" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 10:58:02 +0100, Paul wrote: James Farrar wrote: On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:36:00 +0100, Paul paulroberthill_NOSPAM wrote: If you use a travelcard on national rail stick to a paper ticket. With Oyster you pay *more* money. What a con. If you buy your Travelcard on Oyster from South West Trains (not sure about other TOCs) they give you the same discount for poor performance that you'd get with their paper version. How many SWT stations in London have the facility to sell Oyster cards? It's only 2 or 3. Same for SET. If you care about the discount, you'll go out of your way once a year to buy your Travelcard. I buy monthly (as I think the majority of people do). An annual Z1-5 travelcard is a lot of money to pay in one lump sum. So you're already choosing to pay more. No you are not. Anyone with any sense does not buy a monthly pass to cover their 2 week xmas and summer break Assuming you take your holiday as such. In my experience most people take their holiday entitlement in more than two blocks. I just looked at uswitch.com and it gave me a whole list of 12-month loans that the monthly payment is less than a monthly Travelcard (using the example of a Z1-5 as quoted). but is it less than 11? Many are. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 21:37:18 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote: On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 21:38:30 +0100, Laurence Payne wrote: Look at it this way. They COULD have announced "No more cash fares". And if they had, they'd have had to improve the Oyster issuing facilities, e.g. by providing issuing machines, else there'd be massive queues at ticket offices. But that would only be a short-term "problem." Once the vast majority have Oysters, ticket-office custom will be a lot lower. Instead, they copped out and introduced unreasonably high single fares. For those stupid enough not to use Oyster. -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV: http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/ |
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On 4/10/05 8:39 pm, in article
, "Mizter T" wrote: in cash single fares on the Tubes and buses, but the BBC News story story contains the critical information on how to avoid these fares increases. And that is to ***get an Oyster card and start using the Pre Pay system to pay for single fares on the Tubes and buses***. It is that simple. Not if you get on the bus and find you are out of credit. Or if you mislay your oyster. Or if you rarely use public transport in London at all. Cash fares are your only option; they should not be a rip off. -- U n d e r a c h i e v e r |
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Instead, they copped out and introduced unreasonably high single
fares. For those stupid enough not to use Oyster. Exactly. Anyone foolish enough to pay £3 instead of £1 for their journey has no right to complain. (A single outside Zone1 from 2006) People not from London can stop complaining too. Londoners deserve cheaper fares, in fact we pay in part for the costs of the Underground through our council tax so I'm perfectly happy to no longer subsidise tourists and visitors who, for whatever reason, do not adopt Oyster. And finally the people in London but on National Rail routes who claim to be excluded. What rubbish - are you telling me you never use the bus? Get an Oyster card and you can start saving when you do. You don't even pay tube level fares when you do use the train. Point to point fares are often much less than zonal fares. Those routes that are charged at LUL rates are the same routes that went over to Oyster prepay in the first place anyway. And why focus your anger at TfL or Ken like the Evening Standard or the Daily Mail instructed you to? Lobby the train companies!! |
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Neil Williams wrote:
On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:10:01 +0100, Roland Perry wrote: New York subways also have a mag-stripe card which you can load with money for several journeys. One disadvantage for the infrequent traveller (and tourist) is that the credit expires after a year. ISTR that a Dutch Strippenkaart expires after two fare increases (or something similar). The Dutch Strippenkaart system makes Oyster seem easy! Never could work them out. 1 strip or 2? How long does it last for, where's the cheapest place to buy them etc. -- Paul |
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In message , at 10:18:50
on Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Paul remarked: The Dutch Strippenkaart system makes Oyster seem easy! Never could work them out. 1 strip or 2? How long does it last for, where's the cheapest place to buy them etc. I was advised I needed two for a tram journey of about half a mile. So perhaps that's the minimum. I walked. Like you, I have a blind spot when it comes to knowing where to buy them. -- Roland Perry |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 22:13:28 GMT, Chris Tolley
wrote: Incidentally, I don't find the idea of ripping off tourists and non-Londoners (which has been mentioned as a target) remotely acceptable. Tourists from abroad get offered all sorts of attractive travelcard options that we never hear about. |
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On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:25:11 +0100, "TKD" wrote:
And finally the people in London but on National Rail routes who claim to be excluded. What rubbish - are you telling me you never use the bus? Get an Oyster card and you can start saving when you do. You don't even pay tube level fares when you do use the train. Point to point fares are often much less than zonal fares. Those routes that are charged at LUL rates are the same routes that went over to Oyster prepay in the first place anyway. And why focus your anger at TfL or Ken like the Evening Standard or the Daily Mail instructed you to? Lobby the train companies!! Indeed. I am served by NR and by Underground. But the Underground is a 15 minute walk away, the NR station is served by a 'bus. Returning late in the evening I am reluctant to take the walk, through a somewhat unsafe area. So I cannot use Oyster as a one-day card, I must buy a paper ticket. |
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Neil Williams wrote:
[1] I fail to see how anyone can consider, in itself, gbp3 as a reasonable fare for a short-distance Tube single. I don't think that a cash fare of GBP3 is intended to be seen as reasonable. It is set at that level to encourage people to use alternative methods of payment. -- John Ray, London UK. |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:48:52 +0100, asdf
wrote: I have a friend who won't get an Oyster card because she doesn't want "them" to know where she's been and what she's been doing. Not even an unregistered pre-pay card... Presumably she's on benefit and working, What a ridiculous statement. No. That would be a logical reason. Sort of. Otherwise it's just sheer paranoia (or bloody-mindedness). |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 11:14:10 +0100, James Farrar
wrote: And the price of 12 single journeys using PrePay is twelve times the price of one. Unless a number of them are on the same day. |
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