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Neil Williams wrote:
And gbp3 is an absolute insult. Off-peak, you can get a ticket for unlimited train travel throughout Greater Manchester for less than that Which may well explain why people call it *Greater* Manchester. ;-D A similarly good deal can be had around Liverpool too. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683652.html (Class 108 51916 at Kettering - last day of the Corby service, 1990) |
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Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
Why should I be expected to get an Oyster for just 7 single tube fares so far this year? Why not? It would save you money next year. It takes 5 mins to get one, and then you just feed a tenner into the machine when the barriers say you are getting low. I love my oyster prepay, and delight in going straight through the barriers while my work colleagues search their pockets for cash to go in the ticket machine. Tim |
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On 4 Oct 2005 11:35:31 -0700, "Richard Adamfi"
wrote: Of course, that would be better but we have already tried that strategy this year. It would appear that many people are still paying the 2 pound cash single compared to the 1.70 Oyster fare. It is clear that a bigger differential is needed to encourage Oyster use. Could these "many people" be the ones; - for whom Oyster is too complicated (e.g. it involves a visit to the window) - who are only making a simple single or return journey which they won't be repeating any time soon Unless ticket machines are replaced with Oyster issuers, and even if they are in some cases, people will still, quite reasonably, want singles. This is not an excuse to rip them off. Oddly, bus travellers aren't being fleeced to the same extent, even though the impact of their use of single tickets actually involves delaying the bus (if ticketing is from the driver). IMO, this is largely designed to increase income. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 02:47:14 +0100, Tim Bray
wrote: It takes 5 mins to get one, and then you just feed a tenner into the machine when the barriers say you are getting low. ....which TfL get to keep and earn interest on. Oyster in its current form is not suitable for very infrequent passengers. There is no excuse for blatently ripping these people off. 2 quid was expensive, but 3 quid is offensive. I hope the taxis increase their takings substantially and TfL's income decreases accordingly, to teach them a lesson for this. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 00:52:20 GMT, Chris Tolley
wrote: A similarly good deal can be had around Liverpool too. While a Liverpool city centre single is somewhere around the gbp0.50 mark, as I recall. Even Metrolink isn't that expensive (and it is usually regarded as overpriced), and Manchester of course has its 3-route free city centre bus network. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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Neil Williams wrote:
I hope the taxis increase their takings substantially and TfL's income decreases accordingly, to teach them a lesson for this. There's an idea! How about Oyster Prepay in Black Cabs with a higher rate if you paid by cash ;-) -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
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Laurence Payne wrote:
They're there. They work on period tickets. But the train companies don't seem to want to wire them up to the pre-pay system. That's because they are slow on the uptake of a purely zonal fare system as per the tube. AFAIK it's not due to come into effect until 2006 or 2007. Unfortunately NR are very much in the past with their archaic point to point system for rail only journeys within the Travelcard area. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
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It takes 5 mins to get one, and then you just feed a tenner into the machine when the barriers say you are getting low. ...which TfL get to keep and earn interest on. Oyster in its current form is not suitable for very infrequent passengers. There is no excuse for blatently ripping these people off. 2 quid was expensive, but 3 quid is offensive. No. There is a *perception* that Oyster in its current form is not suitable for very infrequent passengers. There is no minumum balance on the card. Only put a fiver on if that is all you will use all year. You don't have to send away your passport or have a credit check to get one - you just go to a tube station and ask for one. You don't even have to fill in a form if you don't want to. Its just plain old fear of change. |
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In message , at 17:52:40 on Tue, 4 Oct
2005, Paul Terry remarked: My job takes me into London (via SWT and tube) only occasionally, for which I use one-day travel cards. How would Oyster benefit me, bearing in mind that it is not accepted by SWT? But how do highly priced cash fares dis-benefit you, given that you have a travelcard? -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at
22:24:00 on Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel remarked: But the fare increases won't affect journeys from those stations. They will for overnight stays. These include tube travel in central London to work when I have to buy tube singles, currently £2 (Zone 1) or £2.20 (Zones 1 & 2). No wonder I use my bike now if at all possible. Why don't you get an Oyster? Is the three quid really that much of an issue? I have an Oyster and use it about once a month, as much for the convenience as the ticket price. -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at 18:24:21 on Tue, 4 Oct
2005, Neil Williams remarked: And gbp3 is an absolute insult. Off-peak, you can get a ticket for unlimited train travel throughout Greater Manchester for less than that, for example. gbp2 is too much for a Zone 1 single, IMO. £2.30 to travel all round Nottingham all day (bus and tram). And valid during the peaks, too. The best value is the family version of that ticket - just £5 for five people. -- Roland Perry |
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In message , at
23:52:00 on Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel remarked: Why should I be expected to get an Oyster for just 7 single tube fares so far this year? Colin, you need to decide whether you want to have your cake, or eat it. Either the extra cost is crippling you and you need to get an Oyster. Or the number of times you'd use it doesn't justify it. One or the other! -- Roland Perry |
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Out of interest, does anyone recall how much a Zone 1 tube single cost
when Ken was first elected? If it was that much less than £1.50 then I'd be very much surprised. If so, this all strikes me as a very good deal - especially with the flexibility of Pre-Pay. If anything, I shouldn't be surprised if this move causes TfL revenue to fall - although this will probably be balanced out by decreased costs from staffing of ticket windows and the handling of large amounts of change from machines. I'd certainly agree with previous posters who have said that fear of change seems to be a large basis of the criticism of this scheme. The political criticism reported by the BBC last night seemed to be very much a scraping of the barrel to find something to hit the Mayor with operation. |
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"Graham J" wrote in message ... The Oyster Pre-Pay fare will be £1.50. A 50% rise doesn't sound so bad. Bad enough, but not so bad. When the national economy's growth is less than 2% it looks ****ing exorbitant to me. I am in favour of encouraging people onto public transport and this is not the way to do it. Instead, offering promotional fares to new users for specific venue, or event, tie-ins increases income with the possibility of getting people to use the system without preaching to the converted. Many events involve travel at non-peak times when it is usually possible to get a seat on the tube or a bus. Slogging into town, sitting in a car while breathing from someone else's exhaust pipe, looks pretty unattractive in comparison. -- Brian |
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Out of interest, does anyone recall how much a Zone 1 tube single cost
when Ken was first elected? If it was that much less than £1.50 then I'd be very much surprised. If so, this all strikes me as a very good deal - especially with the flexibility of Pre-Pay. It was £1.50 at January 2000. |
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Neil Williams wrote: It takes 5 mins to get one, and then you just feed a tenner into the machine when the barriers say you are getting low. ...which TfL get to keep and earn interest on. If you really want to pay for your tickets one at a time then you can still do so with Oyster. Instead of putting 3 pound coins into the machine and getting a paper ticket, you simply touch the Oyster card on the ticket machine, select 'top-up' then put in the 1.50 then touch the card onto the ticket machine again. This way, you still pay the lower Oyster fare but you don't have to pay in advance and lose your interest to TfL. |
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Neil Williams wrote: Oyster in its current form is not suitable for very infrequent passengers. Why not? Seems to me that Prepay is *exactly* what very infrequent passengers need. -- Larry Lard Replies to group please |
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Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 00:52:20 GMT, Chris Tolley wrote: A similarly good deal can be had around Liverpool too. While a Liverpool city centre single is somewhere around the gbp0.50 mark, as I recall. Even Metrolink isn't that expensive (and it is usually regarded as overpriced), and Manchester of course has its 3-route free city centre bus network. I meant to include Glasgow as well. A clockwork Orange single is a quid, but IIRC for 1.90 you can use it as much as you like. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13277469.html (Demolition in progress at London Broad Street station, Aug 1985) |
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Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
Why should I be expected to get an Oyster for just 7 single tube fares so far this year? Nobody *expects* you to do anything, but you are offered a choice. You can freely choose an oyster which will bring you a certain type of convenience along with a cheaper cost of travel, or you can freely choose not to get one, which will relieve you of the tiresome burden of planning ahead and remembering to carry it with you, and will only cost you a few quid more than the oyster price. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632973.html (43 140 nearing completion at Crewe Works in 1979) |
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Neil Williams wrote:
...which TfL get to keep and earn interest on. Remind me, Neil - how much interest were you going to get on this fiver that TfL are getting to keep? Hint: Look down the back of your sofa. You'll probably find the mythical lost interest there, and more besides. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p12119124.html (150 134 in blue with a bag to keep the snow out of the coupler, 2005) |
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Neil Williams wrote:
Unless ticket machines are replaced with Oyster issuers, and even if they are in some cases, people will still, quite reasonably, want singles. This is not an excuse to rip them off. No, but if people do gravitate across to Oyster in sufficient numbers, it will quickly become disproportionately expensive to maintain the infrastructure to handle these tickets, won't it. -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p11857686.html (Both gone: Hastings DEMU 1035 under Charing Cross's glass roof, 1980) |
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In message , at 09:38:36 on Wed, 5
Oct 2005, TKD remarked: Out of interest, does anyone recall how much a Zone 1 tube single cost when Ken was first elected? If it was that much less than £1.50 then I'd be very much surprised. If so, this all strikes me as a very good deal - especially with the flexibility of Pre-Pay. It was £1.50 at January 2000. What was the carnet price? I have an idea it was £1.10 (£11 quid for 10 tickets). As an infrequent traveller, that was my solution at the time. -- Roland Perry |
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Thanks - so in real terms a fare cut. Won't see the Standard running on
that one. |
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Neil Williams wrote:
And gbp3 is an absolute insult. Off-peak, you can get a ticket for unlimited train travel throughout Greater Manchester for less than that, for example. gbp2 is too much for a Zone 1 single, IMO. I'm born and bred in Rochdale myself and I've had many GM Rail Rangers, but I would still say that a One Day Travelcard (which is still paper) or even Oyster Pre-Pay capping is better value due to the huge network it is valid on. The equivalent to the One Day Travelcard in GM is the System One Bus and Train ticket which is 4.00 or the Bus, Train and Tram Daysaver which is 6.50. An all day System One Bus only Daysaver (GM) has now just gone up to 3.50, whereas the equivalent in London will still only be 3.00 from January (with Oyster). |
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On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 22:36:33 +0000 (UTC), Mike Bristow
wrote: ODTs can be bought at "Ticket Stops" (ie, newsagents) on Oyster these days... can't they? Nope. An Oyster loaded with pre-pay automatically acts as a ODT. Except that most National Rail stations within the ODT zone won't read it :-( |
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Laurence Payne wrote:
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 22:36:33 +0000 (UTC), Mike Bristow wrote: ODTs can be bought at "Ticket Stops" (ie, newsagents) on Oyster these days... can't they? Nope. An Oyster loaded with pre-pay automatically acts as a ODT. Except that most National Rail stations within the ODT zone won't read it :-( Lawrence, you've misunderstood the situation somewhat. An Oyster card - when used in it's Pre Pay guise - will be capped at the price of a ODTC if it's used enough during a particular day - but it does *not* become an ODTC, and can only be used on National Rail routes that accept Pre Pay (and the majority of NR routes in London don't accept Pre Pay). See this official 'Ask Oyster' answer: http://snipurl.com/capping_and_ODTC Next year the levels for a daily capping will be set 50p below the 'equivalent' prices for a ODTC, so that might help people understand the difference. It's also fairer as with a capped Pre Pay Oyster card you can travel on less routes than you could with a ODTC, as most National Rail routes don't accept Pre Pay. People who may be travelling on National Rail services during their day out in London will therefore find that in most situations a ODTC is the most appropriate ticket for them. ODTC are available, as they always have been, from both Tube and NR ticket offices and from 'Ticket Stop' newsagents, and they come as a printed ticket (and no, you can't get an ODTC on Oyster). |
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Colin Rosenstiel wrote: They will for overnight stays. These include tube travel in central London to work when I have to buy tube singles, currently £2 (Zone 1) or £2.20 (Zones 1 & 2). In which case you can pay less (and the fares will actually *decrease* from 2006) if you use Oyster pre-pay for those singles. So I have to get an Oyster for what is in fact just two tickets so far this year. If you want to avoid the fares increase, yes. |
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asdf wrote:
On 4 Oct 2005 14:57:10 -0700, "Paul" wrote: How about installing Oyster readers in all London train stations? *Then* TFL can start shoving oysters down people's necks. They already are installed at every station in London that has barriers (except Romford). At stations without barriers, they would serve no purpose anyway (you don't need to touch in/out if you have a Travelcard season). But there are many stations without barriers. If you use a travelcard on national rail stick to a paper ticket. With Oyster you pay *more* money. What a con. If you buy your Travelcard on Oyster from South West Trains (not sure about other TOCs) they give you the same discount for poor performance that you'd get with their paper version. How many SWT stations in London have the facility to sell Oyster cards? It's only 2 or 3. Same for SET. -- Paul |
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In message , Roland
Perry writes In message , at 17:52:40 on Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Paul Terry remarked: My job takes me into London (via SWT and tube) only occasionally, for which I use one-day travel cards. How would Oyster benefit me, bearing in mind that it is not accepted by SWT? But how do highly priced cash fares dis-benefit you, given that you have a travelcard? They don't. I am merely pointing out that Oyster is of no benefit to me or Londoners like me who now work largely from home and only go into the office one or two days a week using NR + tube. At least, it is of no benefit until it becomes London-wide and encompasses the entire railway system in the capital. -- Paul Terry |
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In message .com,
Larry Lard writes Neil Williams wrote: Oyster in its current form is not suitable for very infrequent passengers. Why not? Because, unlike the one-day travelcard, Oyster pre-pay cannot be used on most of the national railway system in London. -- Paul Terry |
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How does one document the tickets in order to claim expenses then?
You can request a statement which will be mailed to you the same day by 1st class post. Why should I pay a year's worth up front? You don't. You can charge up your card with only the cost of your next journey each time. |
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In message , at
16:27:00 on Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel remarked: £3 for two two pounds tickets seems more than the hassle is worth in my book. I was wrong in thinking I'd bought as many as 7 singles this year. The actual number I found on checking was 2. So pay the extra, for the convenience of paying in cash. -- Roland Perry |
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Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:38:36 on Wed, 5 Oct 2005, TKD remarked: Out of interest, does anyone recall how much a Zone 1 tube single cost when Ken was first elected? If it was that much less than £1.50 then I'd be very much surprised. If so, this all strikes me as a very good deal - especially with the flexibility of Pre-Pay. It was £1.50 at January 2000. What was the carnet price? I have an idea it was £1.10 (£11 quid for 10 tickets). As an infrequent traveller, that was my solution at the time. Sounds about right - when I arrived in London in 2002, Carnet worked out at £1.15 per ticket (and bus Savers were 65p). It went up to £1.50 per ticket in 2003. For me, the decrease in the Zone 1-2 prepay fare after 7pm from £2.00 to £1.50 is certainly welcome. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:49:28 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: £2.30 to travel all round Nottingham all day (bus and tram). And valid during the peaks, too. Now that *is* good. Many of these rover-type tickets in the provinces are off-peak only. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:52:09 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote: Either the extra cost is crippling you and you need to get an Oyster. Or the number of times you'd use it doesn't justify it. One or the other! Or gbp3 is an offensively expensive fare for a Zone 1 single. You'll note I'm not objecting to a lower Oyster fare. I'm only objecting to gbp2 single slightly, as it's a bit too much. But three quid is quite simply taking the mick. Neil -- Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK When replying please use neil at the above domain 'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read. |
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Paul Terry wrote: In message , Roland Perry writes In message , at 17:52:40 on Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Paul Terry remarked: My job takes me into London (via SWT and tube) only occasionally, for which I use one-day travel cards. How would Oyster benefit me, bearing in mind that it is not accepted by SWT? But how do highly priced cash fares dis-benefit you, given that you have a travelcard? They don't. I am merely pointing out that Oyster is of no benefit to me or Londoners like me who now work largely from home and only go into the office one or two days a week using NR + tube. At least, it is of no benefit until it becomes London-wide and encompasses the entire railway system in the capital. You therefore have nothing to worry about with regards to the new fares regime. TfL would love the Oyster Pre Pay system to go London-wide and be rolled out across the whole National Rail network in the capital. I have read that they'd cover some of the installation costs (something I read said they'd cover the entire cost). It is however not in their power to make this happen, it is the decision of the TOCs. As I see it the TOCs are wary of Pre Pay for business reasons, and given the current business structure of the railways it shouldn't surprise anyone that they look at things from this perspective. Some day I'll kick of a thread with some further thoughts on the TOCs aversion to Pre Pay, but this thread is not the right forum for such considered thoughts as the temperature is a little too hot with indignation! |
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