On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:40:15 +0100 someone who may be Barry Salter
wrote this:-

I'd further suggest that she was given the option of paying the £20
Penalty Fare, declined to do so, failed to pay within 21 days, and
*that* is why TfL are taking her to Court.

Er, why should someone pay a "penalty" fare if they have already
paid the fare by a card gizmo?

As with cash machines there seems to be an assumption, which the
operators are not keen to correct, that machines always work.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

After I board the bus, once the bus has left the stop, when the driver
gets to the next stop, can I ask the driver if my Oyster Card was
validated?

Can I request a receipt for my Oyster validation from the driver's
Wayfarer?

On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?

"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
oups.com...
After I board the bus, once the bus has left the stop, when the driver
gets to the next stop, can I ask the driver if my Oyster Card was
validated?

Can I request a receipt for my Oyster validation from the driver's
Wayfarer?

On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?


Not so much of a problem on the tube as the gate swinging open is a good
indication that you've touched in correctly.

However, I have had much trouble on the DLR and buses with readers.

If you don't touch in properly by laying your card flat on the reader for a
second then
sometimes the card registers and sometimes it doesn't.

It may beep and and give you an error message
But it sometimes register anyway.
If you touch in again to make sure then more often than not you end up with
an unresolved journey.
And unresolved journey are of course a pain. Especially in non tube areas
like the DLR where you have to phone
Oyster customer services.

If you don't touch in again and walk on then theres no way of knowing if you
have a valid ticket.

The DLR crew do use their initiative and give you the benefit of the doubt
in most cases.
However the heavy handed revenue inspectors really don't care. They are in
the business of collecting names and addresses and prosecuting.

It happens to me at least once a week.
Solution I can see on the DLR is if you touch in twice at the same reader
then the system should realise this

londoncityslicker wrote:
"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
oups.com...
After I board the bus, once the bus has left the stop, when the driver
gets to the next stop, can I ask the driver if my Oyster Card was
validated?

Can I request a receipt for my Oyster validation from the driver's
Wayfarer?

On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?


Not so much of a problem on the tube as the gate swinging open is a good
indication that you've touched in correctly.

However, I have had much trouble on the DLR and buses with readers.

If you don't touch in properly by laying your card flat on the reader for a
second then
sometimes the card registers and sometimes it doesn't.

It may beep and and give you an error message
But it sometimes register anyway.
If you touch in again to make sure then more often than not you end up with
an unresolved journey.
And unresolved journey are of course a pain. Especially in non tube areas
like the DLR where you have to phone
Oyster customer services.

If you don't touch in again and walk on then theres no way of knowing if you
have a valid ticket.

The DLR crew do use their initiative and give you the benefit of the doubt
in most cases.
However the heavy handed revenue inspectors really don't care. They are in
the business of collecting names and addresses and prosecuting.

It happens to me at least once a week.
Solution I can see on the DLR is if you touch in twice at the same reader
then the system should realise this

Actually the oyster phone line is bloody useless. I live in a DLR area
but with no tube stations nearby. The "helpline" cannot resolve
unresolved journies meaning I have to go to a tube station and cannot
use my Oyster card in the meantime - meaning I have to pay normal cash
rates! There are some serious problems with Oyster pre-paid for those
not living near a tube station that TFL are just ignoring. As per
normal us Londoners not living near a tube station get a second rate
transport service....

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:42:42 +0100, "londoncityslicker"
wrote:


"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
roups.com...

If you don't touch in again and walk on then theres no way of knowing if you
have a valid ticket.

The DLR crew do use their initiative and give you the benefit of the doubt
in most cases.
However the heavy handed revenue inspectors really don't care. They are in
the business of collecting names and addresses and prosecuting.

It happens to me at least once a week.
Solution I can see on the DLR is if you touch in twice at the same reader
then the system should realise this



Reading all this has made me decide not to get an oyster card. Not
that I can use one as my daily journey into London starts from outside
zone 6.
I prefer a printed card with all journey details plainly displayed so
anyone can see that I have a valid ticket.



Dave

"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
oups.com...
On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.
You don't have to prove your innocence. The prosecutor has to prove
your guilt - beyond reasonable doubt.

I have no doubt Tfl would be delighted if the reverse were true.

Roger

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*. For example
(I don't know the TfL rules, but the railway byelaws state this very
clearly) in a compulsory ticket area one *must* be in possession of a
valid ticket, otherwise it's a byelaw offence. It doesn't matter
whether you paid the fare, nor intended to pay the fare - that byelaw
offence isn't based on intention, it's based on factually not holding
a valid ticket.

You don't have to prove your innocence.

If the accused cannot present a valid ticket, then their mere
*intention* to have paid the fare might not be sufficient. IANAL.

In message . ac.uk, at
10:33:45 on Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Alan J. Flavell
remarked:
However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*. For example
(I don't know the TfL rules, but the railway byelaws state this very
clearly) in a compulsory ticket area one *must* be in possession of a
valid ticket, otherwise it's a byelaw offence. It doesn't matter
whether you paid the fare, nor intended to pay the fare - that byelaw
offence isn't based on intention, it's based on factually not holding
a valid ticket.

And a bit of an issue if the reason you don't have a ticket is because
you've been mugged and your bag stolen.
--
Roland Perry

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*.
[snip]

Speed trap cameras are in this catagory too.
(not sour grapes I've never been snapped - AFAIK)

I don't know how what passes for our elected represenatives have
allowed such travesties of fundamental rights to come to pass.... er
perhaps I do...they are worse than useless. :-)

Roger



Roger

"Roger R" wrote in message
. ..

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*.
[snip]

Speed trap cameras are in this catagory too.
(not sour grapes I've never been snapped - AFAIK)

Speeding is an absolute offense.

Travelling without a ticket is not.

tim