"Clive Dennis" wrote in message
oups.com...
On the tram, though, there is no ticket staff - does the tram driver
have a reader? How can I prove my innocence on a tram?

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.
You don't have to prove your innocence. The prosecutor has to prove
your guilt - beyond reasonable doubt.

I have no doubt Tfl would be delighted if the reverse were true.

Roger

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*. For example
(I don't know the TfL rules, but the railway byelaws state this very
clearly) in a compulsory ticket area one *must* be in possession of a
valid ticket, otherwise it's a byelaw offence. It doesn't matter
whether you paid the fare, nor intended to pay the fare - that byelaw
offence isn't based on intention, it's based on factually not holding
a valid ticket.

You don't have to prove your innocence.

If the accused cannot present a valid ticket, then their mere
*intention* to have paid the fare might not be sufficient. IANAL.

In message . ac.uk, at
10:33:45 on Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Alan J. Flavell
remarked:
However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*. For example
(I don't know the TfL rules, but the railway byelaws state this very
clearly) in a compulsory ticket area one *must* be in possession of a
valid ticket, otherwise it's a byelaw offence. It doesn't matter
whether you paid the fare, nor intended to pay the fare - that byelaw
offence isn't based on intention, it's based on factually not holding
a valid ticket.

And a bit of an issue if the reason you don't have a ticket is because
you've been mugged and your bag stolen.
--
Roland Perry

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*.
[snip]

Speed trap cameras are in this catagory too.
(not sour grapes I've never been snapped - AFAIK)

I don't know how what passes for our elected represenatives have
allowed such travesties of fundamental rights to come to pass.... er
perhaps I do...they are worse than useless. :-)

Roger



Roger

"Roger R" wrote in message
. ..

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Roger R wrote:

In this country you are innocent until proved guilty.

However, increasing numbers of offences are based solely on the
factual evidence, without any need to prove *intention*.
[snip]

Speed trap cameras are in this catagory too.
(not sour grapes I've never been snapped - AFAIK)

Speeding is an absolute offense.

Travelling without a ticket is not.

tim

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

Speeding is an absolute offense.

"offence", in the UK.

Travelling without a ticket is not.

On national rail, at least, it's a byelaw offence to be in a
compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket.

"Alan J. Flavell" wrote in message
. gla.ac.uk...
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

Speeding is an absolute offense.

"offence", in the UK.

Travelling without a ticket is not.

On national rail, at least, it's a byelaw offence to be in a
compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket.

punishable by penalty fare, not by criminal convection.

tim

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

On national rail, at least, it's a byelaw offence to be in a
compulsory ticket area without a valid ticket.

punishable by penalty fare, not by criminal convection.

The punter /may/ get the opportunity to pay the penalty fare, but
prosecution is another option available. Which option is used,
depends on circumstances, AIUI.

In message , at 19:25:21 on Fri, 21 Oct
2005, "tim (moved to sweden)" remarked:

punishable by penalty fare, not by criminal convection.

wossat? A load of hot air?
--
Roland Perry

In message . ac.uk,
Alan J. Flavell writes
a compulsory ticket area
What would this be then? I've never seen signs to say, "You must be in
possession of a ticket to pass this spot.
--
Clive