On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 00:46:58 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

And if I go out of zone, say to Amersham or Chesham, that's the first time
the ticket picks me up. And this brings up the other problem. The travelcard
is in part appealing because of "no need to plan your journey in advance",
whilst Oyster PrePay has been advertised (dodgily) on the same basis. But
the extensions *do* require me to beep in and out at Stratford, even if I
haven't yet planned to do so - say I was going to Harrow but got a phone
message to go to Chesham in the Willsden area?

In that case, tough luck!! I really don't see why you think you're
being so deprived here. If you thought you might need to go out of
zone, you should have touched in when you entered the Tube system.

Is it really so much trouble, on these extremely rare occasions, to
have to leave then re-enter the gates at Harrow (where you'd probably
be changing trains anyway)? It's still more convenient than pre-Oyster
days as you don't need to buy a ticket extension.

(In fact, if you were really lucky, you might have received the phone
call on board an Amersham/Chesham-bound train that subsequently got
routed into platform 1 at Harrow, which has validators on the platform
that you could step out briefly and use.)

Incidentally, if I'd started my journey at Ilford were there are barriers
with Oyster readers, would the system have a problem? Or would I need to
find a TfL reader for PrePay as well?

UIVMM you'd also need to touch in when entering the pre-pay system.

asdf wrote:

And if I go out of zone, say to Amersham or Chesham, that's the first time
the ticket picks me up. And this brings up the other problem. The
travelcard
is in part appealing because of "no need to plan your journey in advance",
whilst Oyster PrePay has been advertised (dodgily) on the same basis. But
the extensions *do* require me to beep in and out at Stratford, even if I
haven't yet planned to do so - say I was going to Harrow but got a phone
message to go to Chesham in the Willsden area?

In that case, tough luck!! I really don't see why you think you're
being so deprived here. If you thought you might need to go out of
zone, you should have touched in when you entered the Tube system.

Well part of the point is that at Stratford it's possible that as the
travelcard is Zones 1-6 the thought of going into Buckinghamshire has not
entered my mind (and it has happened before, although on an occasion when
the central London part of the Met was working, so I'd gone through the
barriers at Liverpool Street).

The advertising for Oyster goes on and on about "the start of your journey".
Now I've been using a travelcard regularly for well over a decade and "the
start of your journey" has always meant to me the start of the journey
regardless of the system used. My journey to day was Forest Gate to
Whitechapel - two interchanges, both cross platform (and both requiring me
to dive across from one train to another). The advertising (and for that
matter the layout of platforms 3,4&5 and 6&8 at Stratford) do nothing to
create the concept of entering the "tube system" at Stratford in any
meaningful fare zone sense to the traveller. Similarly a lot of the
advertising about "no need to plan your journey in advance" is very much a
"no problem if your plans change mid journey"/"no need to take advance
precautions" thing.

I don't know if there have been any disputed claims that have sought
judgements on this, or if the ASA has ruled on any of the literature on this
point, but I'd hope the concept of Reasonableness still prevails in law to
consider it reasonable for an Oystercard holder to follow the information
they're being given without doing major research on the internet into the
nuances of what is presented as a straightforward option.

Is it really so much trouble, on these extremely rare occasions, to
have to leave then re-enter the gates at Harrow (where you'd probably
be changing trains anyway)? It's still more convenient than pre-Oyster
days as you don't need to buy a ticket extension.

Actually when I go to Harrow I still instinctively go for the fast Amersham
service - old habits die hard and the timetable on arrival at Baker Street
usually still supports them. But that's neither here nor there.

As for the "trouble" factor, whilst I personally know about the problems
with the out of zones extension, that's only because of this newsgroup. All
the advertising/literature I've seen and been given does not cover this
point properly - it just says that travel card users going out of zone get
charged PrePay extensions.

Also given the way my ticket works on a normal journey I don't pick this up.
Since I regularly enter the system at a point with no swipe pad, and exit it
at one, I'm used to the system detecting me as legitimately there, and
assume that at Chesham it detects me and deduces that I have travelled out
of zone, so adds on the extension fare. It's the return journey that causes
problems - again each day I start the home journey at a pad but can't swipe
out at the end of my journey.

(In fact, if you were really lucky, you might have received the phone
call on board an Amersham/Chesham-bound train that subsequently got
routed into platform 1 at Harrow, which has validators on the platform
that you could step out briefly and use.)

I haven't actually noticed these - I presume they're for Aylesbury Chiltern
traffic changing for local stations or Watford? But again this is not
something everyone knows about.

Incidentally, if I'd started my journey at Ilford were there are
barriers
with Oyster readers, would the system have a problem? Or would I need to
find a TfL reader for PrePay as well?

UIVMM you'd also need to touch in when entering the pre-pay system.

Which makes the whole thing even more of a mess - there's zilch at Ilford
saying that if you're on an Oyster season ticket you must touch on a TfL
swipe pad as well to activate PrePay. Again the anti-PrePay advertising at
National Rail stations is not helping the situation much either.

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:04:38 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:



I wish I knew this. I got bollocked on DLR for not beeping, when I had! I
had a year season ticket on my Oyster, zones 1-3 (hence eligible to use the
entire DLR anyway).

I had taken the tube at Old Street (using the barriers), gone down to Bank
on the Northern Line, the DLR was about to leave so I didn't beep on the
little yellow thing (I didn't even know I had to, as I'd beeped in Old
Street).

The inspector's handheld machine did not show I had entered in Old Street,
it said that I was on the DLR illegally, and it didn't show that I had a
year season ticket for zones 1-3 - all it said was that I should have been
there.

The guy gave me a humiliating bollocking and was going to issue me with a
penalty, but eventually let me off telling me not to do it again - he
clearly believed I was genuine (I didn't look like a faredodger, I was
wearing a smart suit FFS!)

I wish I'd known that little tidbit as I'd have asked him for his details.
I will next time!!


I'm not sure though whether your advice about not having to beep on the
Tube either is particularly safe. Surely, if you have £20 extra on top of
your season ticket (in case you ever go out of zone) then if you don't
beep, the system will assume you have come from or are going to zone 6 and
will charge you accordingly? I'd always assumed that, and hence always
beeped, even when the barriers were open or out of order.

Furthermore, if an inspector came on and you hadn't beeped to get through
the barriers on your original station, would his handheld device not query
it and could he not suggest you are trying to come from a zone further out?


It's incidents like this that tell me never to get an oystercard.
I have a yearly Gold Card, something that clearly shows whether or not
it is valid for the journey I make.


Dave

asdf wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:04:38 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

I'm not sure though whether your advice about not having to beep on the
Tube either is particularly safe. Surely, if you have £20 extra on top of
your season ticket (in case you ever go out of zone) then if you don't
beep, the system will assume you have come from or are going to zone 6 and
will charge you accordingly?

If you're going out of your zones, you must touch in/out at *both*
ends of your journey.

If your journey is entirely within your zones, you don't have to touch
in/out at either end.

Furthermore, if an inspector came on and you hadn't beeped to get through
the barriers on your original station, would his handheld device not query
it and could he not suggest you are trying to come from a zone further out?

If you hadn't touched in, you'd only be in trouble if caught
travelling out of zone.


So, even if you clearly have valid tickets for the whole of the journey
you are most likely to have made, you are in trouble, purely because of
Oyster. Another great advertisement for it.

If I am in the system, it's mostly likely that I got in at a place
where I had a valid ticket, and reasonable to assume that I did, and
charge me from the boundary.

If I started from Epping with a zone 1 and 2 travelcard (and some
prepay) and didn't touch in, but touched out at Oxford Circus, I assume
that I would get away without being charged. So in that case the gate
just checks that I have a ticket that's valid at that point. Why
assume that anything more is registered on my card when touching in at
Oxford Circus before going to Epping? I don't think I'd touch at an
open gate. I certainly wouldn't put a paper ticket in one, in case it
was out of order.

On 23 Mar 2006 13:12:46 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

Furthermore, if an inspector came on and you hadn't beeped to get through
the barriers on your original station, would his handheld device not query
it and could he not suggest you are trying to come from a zone further out?

If you hadn't touched in, you'd only be in trouble if caught
travelling out of zone.

So, even if you clearly have valid tickets for the whole of the journey
you are most likely to have made, you are in trouble, purely because of
Oyster.

Because of Oyster? Exactly the same thing would happen if you did the
same with a paper Travelcard season.

If I am in the system, it's mostly likely that I got in at a place
where I had a valid ticket, and reasonable to assume that I did, and
charge me from the boundary.

No it's not. Otherwise, anyone with a Travelcard covering at least one
zone could have unlimited free travel anywhere where pre-pay is valid,
as long as they don't touch in/out outside their zones. For example, a
zone-6-only Travelcard holder could commute every day from Epping to
Waterloo (no barriers on the W&C), with no possibility of ever getting
fined/prosecuted.

I don't think I'd touch at an open gate.

It's a requirement for using pre-pay that you always touch in and out,
even if the gates are open. It's certainly publicised well enough.

If you can't manage it, I suggest you don't try to use pre-pay,
otherwise you're leaving yourself wide open to being penalty fared or
worse.

I certainly wouldn't put a paper ticket in one, in case it was out of order.

But an Oyster pad is hardly likely to swallow your card. (Okay, I'll
grant that if you're paranoid, it "might" erase your Travelcard and
steal all your pre-pay.)

asdf wrote:

If I am in the system, it's mostly likely that I got in at a place
where I had a valid ticket, and reasonable to assume that I did, and
charge me from the boundary.

No it's not. Otherwise, anyone with a Travelcard covering at least one
zone could have unlimited free travel anywhere where pre-pay is valid,
as long as they don't touch in/out outside their zones. For example, a
zone-6-only Travelcard holder could commute every day from Epping to
Waterloo (no barriers on the W&C), with no possibility of ever getting
fined/prosecuted.

Okay what if someone has a zones 2-6 travelcard and goes into zone 1 on a
National Rail service where PrePay *is* accepted, e.g. staying on a one
service beyond Stratford into Liverpool Street. How are they to touch in at
the start at stations with no barriers?

I don't think I'd touch at an open gate.

It's a requirement for using pre-pay that you always touch in and out,
even if the gates are open. It's certainly publicised well enough.

But it's badly publicised in regards the extension service (and the lack of
gates to enter the system at key points).

If you can't manage it, I suggest you don't try to use pre-pay,
otherwise you're leaving yourself wide open to being penalty fared or
worse.

So if I'm taking a single service that starts at a station where I can't
touch in through no fault of my own, and I use the extension facility on a
legitimate route, I am liable for a penalty fare for not doing something
that is impossible or me to do?

asdf wrote:
On 23 Mar 2006 13:12:46 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

Furthermore, if an inspector came on and you hadn't beeped to get through
the barriers on your original station, would his handheld device not query
it and could he not suggest you are trying to come from a zone further out?

If you hadn't touched in, you'd only be in trouble if caught
travelling out of zone.

So, even if you clearly have valid tickets for the whole of the journey
you are most likely to have made, you are in trouble, purely because of
Oyster.

Because of Oyster? Exactly the same thing would happen if you did the
same with a paper Travelcard season.


The equivalent valid paper tickets would be my travelcard and an
extension ticket, which would not get me in trouble, regardless of what
I did with my travelcard at the start of my journey, or whether I'd
sneaked to zone 6 in the meantime. (And why can't there just be an
old-fashioned excess fare window anyway?)

Having valid tickets for your whole journey but still risking being
penalty-fared is an artefact of Oyster.


I don't think I'd touch at an open gate.

It's a requirement for using pre-pay that you always touch in and out,
even if the gates are open. It's certainly publicised well enough.

If you can't manage it, I suggest you don't try to use pre-pay,
otherwise you're leaving yourself wide open to being penalty fared or
worse.


But I was talking about touching in at a station where I had a valid
travelcard. I wouln't be using prepay (yet).

On 25 Mar 2006 13:37:09 -0800, "MIG"
wrote:

The equivalent valid paper tickets would be my travelcard and an
extension ticket, which would not get me in trouble,

They would if you went out of zone without buying the extension first
(e.g. because your plans changed en route).

Having valid tickets for your whole journey but still risking being
penalty-fared is an artefact of Oyster.

I don't think you'd have valid tickets for your whole journey. Your
Travelcard is only valid in its zones, and you need a validated Oyster
card to use pre-pay (which you'd need to go outside them).

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:00:25 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Okay what if someone has a zones 2-6 travelcard and goes into zone 1 on a
National Rail service where PrePay *is* accepted, e.g. staying on a one
service beyond Stratford into Liverpool Street. How are they to touch in at
the start at stations with no barriers?

That does seem to be a bit of a gap in the system.

I also wonder what would happen if the station they started at did
have barriers. Would the card have a record of where they'd touched
in, and would it know what fare to charge at Liverpool Street?

So if I'm taking a single service that starts at a station where I can't
touch in through no fault of my own, and I use the extension facility on a
legitimate route, I am liable for a penalty fare for not doing something
that is impossible or me to do?

Apparently so. Hopefully an inspector would be lenient if you
explained.

asdf wrote:

Okay what if someone has a zones 2-6 travelcard and goes into zone 1 on a
National Rail service where PrePay *is* accepted, e.g. staying on a one
service beyond Stratford into Liverpool Street. How are they to touch in
at
the start at stations with no barriers?

That does seem to be a bit of a gap in the system.

Indeed. Since, to my knowledge, I've not accrued any "uncompleted journey"
notices (I seem to have been lucky when going beyond Zone 6 on the Met)
despite everyday only touching in/out at one end I'd guess the system
assumes I entered/exited legitimately in those circumstances. Which makes it
even stranger that I apparently do have to somehow touch in at the start of
any journey that ends in my going out of zone. (I can understand completely
the need to touch out on the return trip to prove I came back into zone,
rather than jumped the barriers at say Chalfont & Latimet.) Again the Oyster
information on this is woefully inadequate and I doubt asking onsite TfL
staff would yield the answer on this.

I also wonder what would happen if the station they started at did
have barriers. Would the card have a record of where they'd touched
in, and would it know what fare to charge at Liverpool Street?

Ilford has barriers - has anyone tried this? (My ticket covers zone 1 so
can't test it.)

More annoyingly when I went to Romford the other month the barriers lacked
touch pads. How do Oyster season ticket users even get through these gates
normally? (I was lucky as the side gate was open.) And is Romford the only
place within the six zones which lacks readers on its barriers?

So if I'm taking a single service that starts at a station where I can't
touch in through no fault of my own, and I use the extension facility on a
legitimate route, I am liable for a penalty fare for not doing something
that is impossible or me to do?

Apparently so. Hopefully an inspector would be lenient if you
explained.

But if the system has already charged my card, will the inspector have any
power to actually do anything?