And, yes, I do want a seat, preferably near a window, and preferably
upstairs, and preferably not on the sunny side of the bus.

Ideally yes, but on a busy service you can surely not expect such luxury?

I do not regard, for example, being the 10th person in a queue equating with
being the 10th person to get on the bus as a "luxury". I expect it as a matter
of course, and am, frankly, surprised that any civilised person would expect to
get an advantage in such a situation just because he happened to have pre-paid
his ticket.

Till I started reading some of the replies on this forum, I had assumed that
those who did not observe proper queuing were ill-mannered or simply ignorant.
Not for a moment did I think that such people regarded themselves as performing
a public service!

I now stand corrected (whilst still diagreeing fundamentally with such
behaviour).

If you were driving a car towards red traffic lights, and there were two
available lanes, are you saying you would choose the same lane as the car in
front of you for the sake of good manners, or do the sensible thing and
choose the lane with fewest vehicles in it (thus maximising the flow through
the lights when they change as well as your own progress)?

If I were in a queue in the inside lane and spaces were free on the outside
lane, I would use the outside lane but only if I felt able to travel at least
as fast as the cars I was technically overtaking.

If I were driving a bus or van, generally slower-moving, as a matter of
courtesy, I would stay in lane so as not to inconvenience faster moving traffic
that would be held up by me if I were to change lanes.

Marc.

Mait001 wrote:
And, yes, I do want a seat, preferably near a window, and preferably
upstairs, and preferably not on the sunny side of the bus.

Ideally yes, but on a busy service you can surely not expect such
luxury?

I do not regard, for example, being the 10th person in a queue
equating with being the 10th person to get on the bus as a "luxury".

I was referring to your expectation that at busy times you would be able to
choose a shady window seat upstairs, rather than just getting on the bus.

I expect it as a matter of course, and am, frankly, surprised that
any civilised person would expect to get an advantage in such a
situation just because he happened to have pre-paid his ticket.

The problem is that queuing for buses became standard when fares were
collected by the conductor after boarding. In those circumstances, it's
sensible that the queuing order should determine who boards first and who
gets first choice of seats. But now we have some people who have pre-paid
and some who need to pay the driver, and without a conductor the boarding
process takes longer, thus slowing down the journey. The circumstances have
changed.

If the bus is near to capacity, then it's up to the driver to decide how
many people can get on, and to regulate boarding if necessary. But
otherwise, I think it's more civilised for the boarders to get on as quickly
as possible. If you are so concerned about sitting in your favourite seat,
get a Travelcard or travel outside the peaks.

Incidentally, your boarding would be slightly quicker (and your journey
cheaper) if you bought a Bus Saver from your local ticket agent instead of
handing over cash every time.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

The problem is that queuing for buses became standard when fares were
collected by the conductor after boarding. In those circumstances, it's
sensible that the queuing order should determine who boards first and who
gets first choice of seats. But now we have some people who have pre-paid
and some who need to pay the driver, and without a conductor the boarding
process takes longer, thus slowing down the journey. The circumstances have
changed.

Richard, you make valid points.

If the bus is near to capacity, then it's up to the driver to decide how
many people can get on, and to regulate boarding if necessary.

In a rush-hour scramble, it's my experience that drivers are unwilling or
unable to exercise any authority over who gets on the bus, except closing the
door when the front of the bus (even when there are empty seats etc. upstairs)
simply cannot hold any more passengers.

But
otherwise, I think it's more civilised for the boarders to get on as quickly
as possible. If you are so concerned about sitting in your favourite seat,
get a Travelcard or travel outside the peaks.

Incidentally, your boarding would be slightly quicker (and your journey
cheaper) if you bought a Bus Saver from your local ticket agent instead of
handing over cash every time.


Most of the time I do have a (daily) Travelcard but occasionally, when making a
single journey by bus (almost always from Clapham Junction to Fulham by 295
bus) I agree a Saver booklet would be a good idea - but I'd easily lose the
booklet after the first couple of journeys.

Incidentally, is there a stub that can be kept for tax purposes when all Saver
tickets have been used?

Marc.

On 30 Jul 2003 22:15:11 GMT, (Mait001) wrote:

Incidentally, is there a stub that can be kept for tax purposes when all Saver
tickets have been used?

Marc.
Well, you can retain the ticket stubs from the book - but they don't
carry a price on them. They are individually numbered though.

I suppose you could ask the Pass agent for a receipt!


Incidentally, according to the early publicity for Pay Before You
Board you can buy Savers from selected Zone 1 tube stations!


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Mait001 wrote:
Most of the time I do have a (daily) Travelcard but occasionally,
when making a single journey by bus (almost always from Clapham
Junction to Fulham by 295 bus) I agree a Saver booklet would be a
good idea - but I'd easily lose the booklet after the first couple of
journeys.

Incidentally, is there a stub that can be kept for tax purposes when
all Saver tickets have been used?

You retain the ticket, so I suppose you could produce it as evidence of
spending 65p, though there's no indication of date/time/route on it. The
Bus Saver (£3.90) consists of a stapled book of 6 cards, each of which looks
like this (view with fixed width font such as Courier New):
___
| |
| A |
|...|
/ \
/ \
\ B /
\_____/

where A is the ticket which you retain, and B is the "staff receipt" which
you tear off on boarding and hand to the driver/conductor.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Well, you can retain the ticket stubs from the book - but they don't
carry a price on them. They are individually numbered though.

I suppose you could ask the Pass agent for a receipt!


Incidentally, according to the early publicity for Pay Before You
Board you can buy Savers from selected Zone 1 tube stations!


Rob.

Thanks, Rob.

Marc.

Neil Williams wrote:
On 30 Jul 2003 15:43:12 GMT, (Mait001) wrote:

But what you say is correct: queueing is one of those civilising
feratures of British life we ought not to surrender lightly.

Where it provides a service improvement, yes. I personally dislike
the use of multiple queues in banks, post offices etc - and very much
approve of the new electronic systems which are much fairer. I also
dislike McD's intentional use of multiple queues as an
anti-British-culture thing.

I bet large supermarkets (with 30 checkouts or whatever) drive you nuts
then. Are Sainsbury's being anti-British by having a separate queue for each
heavy-duty checkout? Hmmm.

Richard J. wrote:
Mait001 wrote:
And, yes, I do want a seat, preferably near a window, and
preferably upstairs, and preferably not on the sunny side of the
bus.

Ideally yes, but on a busy service you can surely not expect such
luxury?

Just do what I do if you think being unable to board the bus due to it
becoming full will be a problem (or you want a specific seat) - walk one
stop back up the route. Works for me on the 9 every time.

(Mait001) wrote the following in:


The situation in a tube station is entirely different. Your
analogy of queue jumping by inserting a travelcard into a barrier
machine is false, since the comparable "queue" here would be the
queue at the ticket barrier, not the queue at the ticket machine,
and, of course, I would not jump in front of someone else if there
was a queue (as there often is) at the ticket barrier.

No, the queue at the ticket barrier is not the equivalent queue. The
equivalent queue is the one where people are buying tickets (the one
which you would be a part of). The people with tickets who want to get
past you and on to the bus are equivalent to the people going through
the ticket barriers while you are buying your tickets. They've got into
the station before you while you were buying your ticket and so will
get to the platform before you and possibly to the train before you.

Put it this way: in both situations you have people with tickets and
people without tickets. In one situation the people with tickets are
not held up by those without as they queue to buy them, yet in the
other situation you demand that they are held up by those buying their
tickets.

--
message by Robin May, founder of International Boyism
"Would Inspector Sands please go to the Operations Room immediately."

Unofficially immune to hangovers.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:22:13 +0100 John Ray wrote:
} Matthew Malthouse wrote:
}
}
} There are two elements to the boarding question.
}
} In your view good manners requires a queue and an absolute order of
} boarding. For you this has the advantage of increasing the chance that
} you will get the seat you wish for.
}
} In the view of others the priority is rapid loading to minimise wait
} times and thus speed the whole journey, improving the lot of everyone
} using the service.
}
} In the view of some others, principally school children, the priority is
} rapid loading to minimise their own waiting time and devil take the
} hindmost. I doubt if they give any thought to the overall journey time
} or, for that matter, "improving the lot of everyone using the service".

Yet the effect would be the same irrespective of the kids particular
motivations.

Matthew
--
Il est important d'être un homme ou une femme en colère; le jour où nous
quitte la colère, ou le désir, c'est cuit. - Barbara

http://www.calmeilles.co.uk/