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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:24:05 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote: IIRC (I don't have the book to hand at present), she said that if people invent a brand name, one should reluctantly accept it as it stands, and quoted "St Thomas' Hospital" as an example. St Thomas' Hospital gets a specific mention along these lines in the Times style guide ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...41-560,00.html and scroll down to 'apostrophes') where the hospital's house style takes precedence over the newspaper's Martin |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Martin Rich wrote: On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:24:05 GMT, "Richard J." wrote: IIRC (I don't have the book to hand at present), she said that if people invent a brand name, one should reluctantly accept it as it stands, and quoted "St Thomas' Hospital" as an example. St Thomas' Hospital gets a specific mention along these lines in the Times style guide ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...41-560,00.html and scroll down to 'apostrophes') where the hospital's house style takes precedence over the newspaper's Martin Thanks for that link, Martin. I have read it and disagree profoundly with their accusation that St. Thomas' Hospital is a "whim". How patronisingly offensive. Would they be equally patronising when referring to "Jesus' birthplace" or "Zeus' Temple" or "King James' Version" (as in bible)? Only one of these is of two syllables, and none of these are of Greek origin or a "whim"! And, I'm sure (in the days when I still read that newspaper, before it became tabloid) I have seen "Dickens' works" or similar, and never "Dickens's works" which I would have remembered! And, I have NEVER seen either in that newspaper or elsewhere reference to "The Times's Letters Page" or the "The Times's leader"! The simple and easy-to-remember rule is to omit the final "s" in all possessive plurals. Marc. (Admittedly, I only obtained a "B" in English Language O-Level, and that cross I have worn with much pain ever since!) M. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
wrote:
Martin Rich wrote: On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:24:05 GMT, "Richard J." wrote: IIRC (I don't have the book to hand at present), she said that if people invent a brand name, one should reluctantly accept it as it stands, and quoted "St Thomas' Hospital" as an example. St Thomas' Hospital gets a specific mention along these lines in the Times style guide ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...41-560,00.html and scroll down to 'apostrophes') where the hospital's house style takes precedence over the newspaper's Martin Thanks for that link, Martin. I have read it and disagree profoundly with their accusation that St. Thomas' Hospital is a "whim". How patronisingly offensive. Their basic rule is to "follow the rule of writing what is voiced". Everyone who I have heard speak the name of the hospital have said "St Thomas's", so to write it any other way is indeed a whim. Would they be equally patronising when referring to "Jesus' birthplace" or "Zeus' Temple" or "King James' Version" (as in bible)? Only one of these is of two syllables, and none of these are of Greek origin or a "whim"! They seem to use "King James version" without an apostrophe. And, I'm sure (in the days when I still read that newspaper, before it became tabloid) I have seen "Dickens' works" or similar, and never "Dickens's works" which I would have remembered! And, I have NEVER seen either in that newspaper or elsewhere reference to "The Times's Letters Page" or the "The Times's leader"! They used "Dickens's" on 20/5/06. Their style guide allows "The Times's style" OR "Times style". The simple and easy-to-remember rule is to omit the final "s" in all possessive plurals. That's fine, but the discussion that you initiated was about possessive *singulars* where the name ends in "s". Generally, the accepted rule is to add "'s" to the name, as in St James's Park, with certain exceptions including old Greek names, Jesus, etc. As someone whose surname ends in an "s", I find it offensive (well, annoying anyway) if someone treats it as a plural noun, or sticks the apostrophe in the middle of my name (before my "s"). -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Richard J. wrote: wrote: Martin Rich wrote: On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:24:05 GMT, "Richard J." wrote: IIRC (I don't have the book to hand at present), she said that if people invent a brand name, one should reluctantly accept it as it stands, and quoted "St Thomas' Hospital" as an example. St Thomas' Hospital gets a specific mention along these lines in the Times style guide ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...41-560,00.html and scroll down to 'apostrophes') where the hospital's house style takes precedence over the newspaper's Martin Thanks for that link, Martin. I have read it and disagree profoundly with their accusation that St. Thomas' Hospital is a "whim". How patronisingly offensive. Their basic rule is to "follow the rule of writing what is voiced". Everyone who I have heard speak the name of the hospital have said "St Thomas's", so to write it any other way is indeed a whim. Would they be equally patronising when referring to "Jesus' birthplace" or "Zeus' Temple" or "King James' Version" (as in bible)? Only one of these is of two syllables, and none of these are of Greek origin or a "whim"! They seem to use "King James version" without an apostrophe. And, I'm sure (in the days when I still read that newspaper, before it became tabloid) I have seen "Dickens' works" or similar, and never "Dickens's works" which I would have remembered! And, I have NEVER seen either in that newspaper or elsewhere reference to "The Times's Letters Page" or the "The Times's leader"! They used "Dickens's" on 20/5/06. Their style guide allows "The Times's style" OR "Times style". The simple and easy-to-remember rule is to omit the final "s" in all possessive plurals. That's fine, but the discussion that you initiated was about possessive *singulars* where the name ends in "s". Sorry, Richard, my mistake: I should have written The simple and easy-to-remember rule is not to use an "s" after the apostrophe in all possessive nouns (singular or plural) which end in "s". Generally, the accepted rule is to add "'s" to the name, as in St James's Park, with certain exceptions including old Greek names, Jesus, etc. As someone whose surname ends in an "s", I find it offensive (well, annoying anyway) if someone treats it as a plural noun, or sticks the apostrophe in the middle of my name (before my "s"). I would agree with you. Most people mis-spell my Christian name too! -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) Marc. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 Richard J. wrote:
They seem to use "King James version" without an apostrophe. That's OK. It's The King James version, not the version belonging to the king. -- Thoss |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, wrote:
Richard J. wrote: wrote: In her amusing book, "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" Lynn Truss (mistakenly, I think) states the rule as being that one omits the "s" where the proper noun is of "ancient" origin, whatever that may mean. But she then goes on to disprove this rule by quoting "St. Thomas' Hospital" as being an exception to the rule! IIRC (I don't have the book to hand at present), she said that if people invent a brand name, one should reluctantly accept it as it stands, and quoted "St Thomas' Hospital" as an example. The webmaster at their site once tried to persuade me that the spelling reflected the fact that there were two saints called Thomas connected with the hospital, but of course that would make it "St Thomases' Hospital". Ss Thomases', isn't it? Or would you have to say Ss Thomas and Thomas? Now they're starting to sound like a Welsh greengrocer ... Highly amusing what you wrote about the two saints! I hail from two institutions where that rule does apply, but people inevitably get in wrong - Kings' House (in my old school - after Kings Charles I and II) and Queens' College, Cambridge But, just to keep you on your toes, Queen's College, Oxford! tom -- Yesterday's research projects are today's utilities and tomorrow's historical footnotes. -- Roy Smith |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:35:30 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote: Highly amusing what you wrote about the two saints! I hail from two institutions where that rule does apply, but people inevitably get in wrong - Kings' House (in my old school - after Kings Charles I and II) and Queens' College, Cambridge But, just to keep you on your toes, Queen's College, Oxford! One Queen at Oxford; there's only one Queen at Oxford! :-) -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
James Farrar wrote: On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:35:30 +0100, Tom Anderson wrote: Highly amusing what you wrote about the two saints! I hail from two institutions where that rule does apply, but people inevitably get in wrong - Kings' House (in my old school - after Kings Charles I and II) and Queens' College, Cambridge But, just to keep you on your toes, Queen's College, Oxford! One Queen at Oxford; there's only one Queen at Oxford! :-) -- James Farrar . @gmail.com Reminds me of the old college joke, about the fresh-faced undergraduate walking along the Cam, looking for the Queens' College boathouse, and coming across a group of beefy looking oarsmen, saying, "are you lot Queens' ", before being upended into the river. Well, it made me laugh when I first heard it! Marc. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Tristán White wrote: The roundels are wrong. His name is John, not Johns. Therefore, the apostrophe HAS to go between the n and the s. Any other signage is the product of illiterate designers. JOHN'S MARTIN'S In the case of plural nouns, the apostrophe always goes afterwards. So SPANIARDS' INN if it refers to more than one Spaniard, or else SPANIARD'S INN Where there is some discussion is if the given name already ends with S. Eg JAMES'S PALACE or JAMES' PALACE But never JAMES PALACE The official line is, certainly as far as the University of London is concerned where I did my studies and I am a sessional lecturer: If it's Greek, it's always S' If it's not, it's up to the individual as long as he or she is consistent throughout. Therefore, always Achilles' heel, Eros' statue, Nikolaidis' penalty shot, Stavros' kebab house, Bacchus' wine, Androcles' lion, but if it's not Greek, you can say James's Square or James' Square as long as it's consistent throughout. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Tristán White wrote: The roundels are wrong. His name is John, not Johns. Therefore, the apostrophe HAS to go between the n and the s. Any other signage is the product of illiterate designers. JOHN'S MARTIN'S In the case of plural nouns, the apostrophe always goes afterwards. So SPANIARDS' INN if it refers to more than one Spaniard, or else SPANIARD'S INN Where there is some discussion is if the given name already ends with S. Eg JAMES'S PALACE or JAMES' PALACE But never JAMES PALACE The official line is, certainly as far as the University of London is concerned where I did my studies and I am a sessional lecturer: If it's Greek, it's always S' If it's not, it's up to the individual as long as he or she is consistent throughout. Therefore, always Achilles' heel, Eros' statue, Nikolaidis' penalty shot, Stavros' kebab house, Bacchus' wine, Androcles' lion, but if it's not Greek, you can say James's Square or James' Square as long as it's consistent throughout. Good post, but, I believe the normal English grammar rules for apostrophes are generally dropped on street name signs. Therefore if a subway station is named after a street it may be appropriate for its name to be spelt the same way. PedantGrecian is generally a more pleasing way to describe things appertaining to the country Greece, than Greek./pedant Adrian. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
wrote in message ps.com... PedantGrecian is generally a more pleasing way to describe things appertaining to the country Greece, than Greek./pedant Adrian. Whilst an urn may be Grecian, the language is Greek. Jim Hawkins |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Jim Hawkins wrote: wrote in message ps.com... PedantGrecian is generally a more pleasing way to describe things appertaining to the country Greece, than Greek./pedant Adrian. Whilst an urn may be Grecian, the language is Greek. Jim Hawkins And, unfortunately in street venacular, Greek has come to mean buggery. Therefore it is more pleasing, to my ears, to hear that "The Watercress Line has a Grecian locomative" (a locomative imported from Greece), than "The Watercress Line has a Greek locomative" (a buggered locomotive!) Adrian. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 wrote:
the normal English grammar rules for apostrophes are generally dropped on street name signs Why? -- Thoss |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Jim Hawkins wrote:
wrote in message ps.com... PedantGrecian is generally a more pleasing way to describe things appertaining to the country Greece, than Greek./pedant Adrian. Whilst an urn may be Grecian, the language is Greek. Jim Hawkins Mou ine Ellinika -- You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955 |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"thoss" wrote in message
... On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 wrote: the normal English grammar rules for apostrophes are generally dropped on street name signs Why? In general, all punctuation and diacritical marks are dropped to make signs and addresses as easy to read/write as possible. Therefore "St. John's" becomes "St Johns" (notice the two changes). At least where English is the common language; I assume in languages where accents and such are used more frequently, signmakers are more tolerant of them :) I can't think of any roads near me with missing apostrophes, but there's a Mañana Road near me, and the city and post office both write it as "Manana Rd" to keep things simple (though it's "Mañana Rd" on highway signs). S -- Stephen Sprunk "Stupid people surround themselves with smart CCIE #3723 people. Smart people surround themselves with K5SSS smart people who disagree with them." --Aaron Sorkin -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Stephen Sprunk wrote: "thoss" wrote in message ... On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 wrote: the normal English grammar rules for apostrophes are generally dropped on street name signs Why? In general, all punctuation and diacritical marks are dropped to make signs and addresses as easy to read/write as possible. Therefore "St. John's" becomes "St Johns" (notice the two changes). At least where English is the common language; I assume in languages where accents and such are used more frequently, signmakers are more tolerant of them :) I can't think of any roads near me with missing apostrophes, but there's a Mañana Road near me, and the city and post office both write it as "Manana Rd" to keep things simple (though it's "Mañana Rd" on highway signs). S -- Stephen Sprunk "Stupid people surround themselves with smart CCIE #3723 people. Smart people surround themselves with K5SSS smart people who disagree with them." --Aaron Sorkin -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com There is a road through Beverly Hills, its name is spelt variously "Cañon Drive" and "Canon Drive". Adrian. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
wrote: wrote: Jim Hawkins wrote: wrote in message ps.com... PedantGrecian is generally a more pleasing way to describe things appertaining to the country Greece, than Greek./pedant Adrian. Whilst an urn may be Grecian, the language is Greek. Jim Hawkins And, unfortunately in street venacular, Greek has come to mean buggery. Therefore it is more pleasing, to my ears, to hear that "The Watercress Line has a Grecian locomative" (a locomative imported from Greece), than "The Watercress Line has a Greek locomative" (a buggered locomotive!) Adrian. So, Adrian, a locomative becomes a locomotive only when buggered? Personally speaking I will be keeping my own private parts well away from the firebox! Marc. But not as buggered as my spelling. Adrian. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
wrote:
Where there is some discussion is if the given name already ends with S. Eg JAMES'S PALACE or JAMES' PALACE But never JAMES PALACE Can't agree on that. It's a palace or court named for St. James, not possessed by St. James. Apostrophe indicates possession. Ambassadors to Britain are appointed to the Court of Saint James, not Saint James' Court. However, the official royal website calls the palace, St. James's Palace. The irony is that St. James was supposedly buried in Compostela, Spain, and is one of the patron saints of Spain. In Spanish, he has a special name, "Santiago". You'd think after defeating the Spanish Armada, the royal house might have thought about renaming the palace, huh? -- Ned Carlson SW side of Chicago, USA www.tubezone.net |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 Stephen Sprunk wrote:
In general, all punctuation and diacritical marks are dropped to make signs and addresses as easy to read/write as possible. Therefore "St. John's" becomes "St Johns" (notice the two changes). Well, the first change is welcome because your original is wrong IMHO. To quote the Concise Oxford Dictionary "Abbreviations are made chiefly in two ways....(2)Some portion of the middle of the word is dropped out, the first and last letter being retained...the writing of a full stop at the end of these, though now usual, is to be deprecated....The method adopted in the following list is to omit the otiose full stop". -- Thoss |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
In article "Stephen Sprunk" writes:
.... In general, all punctuation and diacritical marks are dropped to make signs and addresses as easy to read/write as possible. Therefore "St. John's" becomes "St Johns" (notice the two changes). As far as I know in British English there is no full stop following an abbreviation if the last letter of the abbreviation is also the last letter of the complete word. (This is different in US English.) -- dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131 home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/ |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
In message , at
08:21:09 on Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Ned Carlson remarked: However, the official royal website calls the palace, St. James's Palace. And all the old maps I have ever found (going back centuries) also use that spelling (for the palace and nearby roads, churches etc). -- Roland Perry |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 08:21:09 on Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Ned Carlson remarked: However, the official royal website calls the palace, St. James's Palace. And all the old maps I have ever found (going back centuries) also use that spelling (for the palace and nearby roads, churches etc). -- Roland Perry So the question is: Do cartographers follow street signposting conventions, or, do they "correct" the spelling of street names back into their normal English form? Moreover, has cartographic practice, in this respect, changed over time? Adrian. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Ned Carlson wrote: wrote: Where there is some discussion is if the given name already ends with S. Eg JAMES'S PALACE or JAMES' PALACE But never JAMES PALACE Can't agree on that. It's a palace or court named for St. James, not possessed by St. James. Apostrophe indicates possession. Ambassadors to Britain are appointed to the Court of Saint James, not Saint James' Court. However, the official royal website calls the palace, St. James's Palace. Sorry, Ned, but if your analogy were correct, then St. Paul's Cathedral would be St. Pauls Cathedral and, to go right back to the original subject of this thread, the woods concerned were no more possessed by St. John than the Palace possessed by St. James or the Cathedral possessed by St. Paul! In this sense, that the wood / street / catheadral is named after someone, these are possessive nouns. Sir Edmund Halley hardly possessed the comet that is named after him, called Halley's Comet! The fact that Ambassadors are appointed to the Court of St. James is immaterial. That just happens to be the way it's written. Equally gramatically correct (although not used, simply by tradition, not because it's gramatically incorrect) would be "Ambassador to St. James' Court". The irony is that St. James was supposedly buried in Compostela, Spain, and is one of the patron saints of Spain. In Spanish, he has a special name, "Santiago". You'd think after defeating the Spanish Armada, the royal house might have thought about renaming the palace, huh? Interesting! -- Ned Carlson SW side of Chicago, USA www.tubezone.net Marc. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On 27 Jun 2006 11:25:43 -0700, "Solario"
wrote: Mark B wrote: Which is right, St James' Park (on the signs) St James Park (in the FGW Timetable) Pronounced St James's Park, both locally and on the AutoAnouncer Opinion The first example could be wrong in context. If it is a street name sign it should read "St James Park". If it is a park name board then I guess St James' Park could be correct. Only if it was named after two or more people called "Jame". snip -- _______ +---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //| | Charles Ellson: | | \\ // | +---------------------------------------------------+ | | | // \\ | Alba gu brath |//___\\| |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
In article Mark B writes:
Which is right, St James' Park (on the signs) St James Park (in the FGW Timetable) Pronounced St James's Park, both locally and on the AutoAnouncer I think you never will know which is right. If I remember right, there are Earl's Court and Barron's Court, both with and without apostrophe. LT uses the apostrophe in one of them, the street signs use it on the other. -- dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131 home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/ |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
In message , Dik T. Winter writes
In article Mark B writes: Which is right, St James' Park (on the signs) St James Park (in the FGW Timetable) Pronounced St James's Park, both locally and on the AutoAnouncer I think you never will know which is right. If I remember right, there are Earl's Court and Barron's Court, both with and without apostrophe. LT uses the apostrophe in one of them, the street signs use it on the other. Exactly. When it comes to place names, their form is dictated by historical precedent and custom rather than rules of grammar. For instance, in Elizabethan times, travellers from the north would most likely enter the city through "Bysshopes Gate". Despite the fact that the standard genitive ending ("-es") indicates a possessive noun, it was never modernised to "Bishop's Gate" or even "Bishops' Gate" - instead (and as early as the 17th century) it became simply Bishopsgate. -- Paul Terry |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
In message , Roland Perry
writes In message , at 08:21:09 on Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Ned Carlson remarked: However, the official royal website calls the palace, St. James's Palace. And all the old maps I have ever found (going back centuries) also use that spelling (for the palace and nearby roads, churches etc). If you go back far enough, you will arrive at the pre-apostropheic age: for instance, John Norden's plan of c.1600 gives "Saint James Parke". But I certainly agree that "James's" appears on most maps after that date, once the apostrophe had become an accepted device. -- Paul Terry |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
wrote:
So the question is: Do cartographers follow street signposting conventions, or, do they "correct" the spelling of street names back into their normal English form? Moreover, has cartographic practice, in this respect, changed over time? Adrian. What I'm wondering, is HTF did apostrophes get into the English language, anyway? None of its ancestor/contributing languages (Anglo-Saxon, Norse, French, Celtic) use or used apostrophes, did they? Didn't the British government go on a campaign a few years ago to eliminate unnecessary punctuation in bureaucratic communications, aside from commas and full stops (what us Americans call a period)? -- Ned Carlson SW side of Chicago, USA www.tubezone.net |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Mark B wrote: Which is right, St James' Park (on the signs) St James Park (in the FGW Timetable) Pronounced St James's Park, both locally and on the AutoAnouncer St James's Park, because that's the name of the park. Mike |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
In article . com,
mmellor writes Mark B wrote: Which is right, St James' Park (on the signs) St James Park (in the FGW Timetable) Pronounced St James's Park, both locally and on the AutoAnouncer St James's Park, because that's the name of the park. Mike Seen on a car number plate yesterday St John's Wood bmw or something like that .co.uk or .com ;) -- Tony Sayer |
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