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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Something I wondered as I took a rare journey north of Baker Street on the
Jubilee Line the other day. The on board scrolling displays and the tube maps say it is spelt St John's Wood with apostrophe but the platform roundels omit it. So which is right? Regards John M Upton |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
John Upton:
The on board scrolling displays and the tube maps say it is spelt St John's Wood with apostrophe but the platform roundels omit it. "San John's Wood"? Interesting variation. :-) So which is right? Either, both, or neither, as you wish. There is no single definitive source for the "true" name of an Underground station, and many stations have had this sort of variation. Of course, if the station was named after something, and *that* has an official or universally used spelling, you might take that to be indicative... -- Mark Brader, Toronto "Just because it's correct doesn't make it right!" -- Jonas Schlein |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Mark Brader wrote:
John Upton: The on board scrolling displays and the tube maps say it is spelt St John's Wood with apostrophe but the platform roundels omit it. "San John's Wood"? Interesting variation. :-) So which is right? Either, both, or neither, as you wish. There is no single definitive source for the "true" name of an Underground station, and many stations have had this sort of variation. Logic would suggest that St John's Wood is more likely to be correct, because the wood then belongs to St John, rather than being a wood consisting of multiple "St John"s, or named after "St Johns"... ....whereas Earl's Court or Barons Court could reasonably have their counterpart spellings, given that a court might either belong to an earl or a baron, or be composed of multiples thereof. My local Shepherd's Bush always bugs me, because although most Tube maps show it "correctly", buses rarely do - partly because although the location seems to be officially named "Shepherd's Bush" and the green space is called "Shepherd's Bush Common", the road that runs along the southeastern and western sides of the Common is apparently "Shepherds Bush Green"*. Argh! I can understand how a bush would *belong* to a Shepherd, but a bush composed of shepherds? Or maybe even "bush" is a verb... dogs bark, sheep bleat, shepherds bush? Of course, if the station was named after something, and *that* has an official or universally used spelling, you might take that to be indicative... * depending on which maps you consult (A-Z or Bart's) and whether you prefer the LB Hammersmith & Fulham's usage (which rarely includes an apostrophe on anything Bush-related). -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
JMUpton2000 wrote:
Something I wondered as I took a rare journey north of Baker Street on the Jubilee Line the other day. The on board scrolling displays and the tube maps say it is spelt St John's Wood with apostrophe but the platform roundels omit it. So which is right? Both, neither who knows. On Wikipedia the principle that a lot are generally happy with (at least the last time I'm aware this came up) is to use the current tube map spelling on the basis that station decorations take a lot longer to change and some platforms use multiple stations (e.g. King's Cross St. Pancras Circle/H&C/Met) so this is the only real consistent standard. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"JMUpton2000" securitynovels @ freeuk.com wrote in message reenews.net... Something I wondered as I took a rare journey north of Baker Street on the Jubilee Line the other day. The on board scrolling displays and the tube maps say it is spelt St John's Wood with apostrophe but the platform roundels omit it. So which is right? Both and Neither. LUL stations are full of anomalies like this. D Rose's Diagrammatic History has notes on the subject. There are many places where station names have mutated and had the "suffix gradually dropped". E.g. Totteridge and Whetstone is called simply Totteridge on the actual station; there is no mention of "and Whetstone" in the station's name anywhere at that station other than on the system-wide maps. Regards John M Upton -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"John B" wrote in message "To court" is a verb, and barons is a legitimate plural...having "green" as a verb would be pushing it a bit, though. I hope there won't be a LUL station called Ghosts Forge Richard [in SG19] -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
In message .com,
" writes BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) PARSONS GREEN / Parsons Green (ditto) Most place names are far older than the apostrophe, which was a 16th-century invention. For instance, Parsons Green never appears with an apostrophe on old maps or other documents, even well after the 16th century. It is the rather haphazard modernisation of spellings over the years that has resulted in many of the anomalous uses of apostrophes. But Barons Court is an exception - it was a name invented just over 100 years ago. It didn't have an apostrophe then, and there is no real reason to add one now. -- Paul Terry |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On 21 Jun 2006 01:34:59 -0700, "
wrote: Have a look at the following, PLACE / Station name anomalies: EARLS COURT / Earl's Court BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) But "Baron's Court Road". -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
John B wrote:
wrote: BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) PARSONS GREEN / Parsons Green (ditto) "To court" is a verb, and barons is a legitimate plural...having "green" as a verb would be pushing it a bit, though. You can write "persons unknown" or "malice aforethought", so why not "parsons green"? |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 John Rowland wrote:
John B wrote: wrote: BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) PARSONS GREEN / Parsons Green (ditto) "To court" is a verb, and barons is a legitimate plural...having "green" as a verb would be pushing it a bit, though. You can write "persons unknown" or "malice aforethought", so why not "parsons green"? Have you ever seen a green parson? -- Thoss |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:14 +0100, Richard M Willis wrote:
E.g. Totteridge and Whetstone is called simply Totteridge on the actual station; there is no mention of "and Whetstone" in the station's name anywhere at that station other than on the system-wide maps. It says "& Whetstone" at least on the outside of the station building: http://www.london-underground.de/alb...ne_station.jpg |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"Paul Terry" wrote in message But Barons
Court is an exception - it was a name invented just over 100 years ago. It didn't have an apostrophe then, and there is no real reason to add one now. Indeed, I seem to remember being told that there never was an actual Baron (fictional or otherwise) after which the place/station was named: they just called it that to p*** off the people one station up the line. Richard [in SG19] -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"thoss" wrote in message
Have you ever seen a green parson? Yes. The parson at the place where I used to live dutifully grew his own veggies, composted the waste therefrom, never used styrofoam cups, and had no car. Richard [in SG19] -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"asdf" wrote in message ... On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:49:14 +0100, Richard M Willis wrote: E.g. Totteridge and Whetstone is called simply Totteridge on the actual station; there is no mention of "and Whetstone" in the station's name anywhere at that station other than on the system-wide maps. It says "& Whetstone" at least on the outside of the station building: It does ? I shall have to go and see this. It never used to when I lived the just "Totteridge". Richard [in SG19] -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
John B wrote: wrote: Mark Brader wrote: Although, the anomalies on the Underground are curious! Have a look at the following, PLACE / Station name anomalies: EARLS COURT / Earl's Court COLLIER'S WOOD / Colliers Wood ST. JOHN'S WOOD / St. Johns Wood In the foregoing, all except Earl's Court, the Underground station has omitted a necessary apostrophe. Just out of interest, where did you get the capitalised place names from? Merton Council spells Colliers Wood without an apostrophe. And Westminster Council spells St John's Wood both ways (as does LUL). I got it from my Geographer's A to Z. And, also: BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) PARSONS GREEN / Parsons Green (ditto) "To court" is a verb, and barons is a legitimate plural...having "green" as a verb would be pushing it a bit, though. John, I think you misunderstand the purpose of the apostrophe. The Court is the Court of the Earl, hence Earl' Court; likewise the Green is that of the Parson, hence Parson's Green. They are both nouns. Whether Baron is singular or plural (Barons), either requires an apostrophe! -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org Marc. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
James Farrar wrote: On 21 Jun 2006 01:34:59 -0700, " wrote: Have a look at the following, PLACE / Station name anomalies: EARLS COURT / Earl's Court BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) But "Baron's Court Road". -- James Farrar . @gmail.com Well spotted, James! Marc. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
John Rowland wrote: John B wrote: wrote: BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) PARSONS GREEN / Parsons Green (ditto) "To court" is a verb, and barons is a legitimate plural...having "green" as a verb would be pushing it a bit, though. You can write "persons unknown" or "malice aforethought", so why not "parsons green"? Because the green is that of the parson, i.e. it belongs (or historically did) belong to the parson whose church is on its Western side, hence a possessive noun, requiring an apostrophe. "Persons unknown" is not a possessive noun, i.e. the "unknown" is not the property of the "persons", The word "unknown" in this context is an adjective, simply describing the type of persons, i.e. "unknown persons". I'm not sure what maliceaforethought (apart from being a rather ugly combination and probably gramatically wrong, but accepted through common usage) has to do with it! Marc. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
wrote in message
John, I think you misunderstand the purpose of the apostrophe. The Court is the Court of the Earl, hence Earl' Court; likewise the Green is that of the Parson, hence Parson's Green. They are both nouns. Whether Baron is singular or plural (Barons), either requires an apostrophe! Indeed. However one uses an apostrophe (or doesn't have one), it must be consistent with the station name being a NOUN PHRASE ! A station can not be called "Everything in the garden is green and lovely" but it can be called "Saddam's Bomb Shelter". Richard [in SG19] -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Richard M Willis wrote:
However one uses an apostrophe (or doesn't have one), it must be consistent with the station name being a NOUN PHRASE ! A station can not be called "Everything in the garden is green and lovely" Why not? About five tube stations are named after pubs, and a pub called "Everything in the garden is green and lovely" is not too hard to imagine... or is it? Surely some pub names are not noun phrases? |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
wrote: John Rowland wrote: John B wrote: wrote: BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) PARSONS GREEN / Parsons Green (ditto) "To court" is a verb, and barons is a legitimate plural...having "green" as a verb would be pushing it a bit, though. You can write "persons unknown" or "malice aforethought", so why not "parsons green"? Because the green is that of the parson, i.e. it belongs (or historically did) belong to the parson whose church is on its Western side, hence a possessive noun, requiring an apostrophe. Methinks Mr Rowland might be aware of that. "Persons unknown" is not a possessive noun, i.e. the "unknown" is not the property of the "persons", The word "unknown" in this context is an adjective, simply describing the type of persons, i.e. "unknown persons". Indeed it is less than a month since AWAD (www.wordsmith.org) had 'postpositive adjectives' as its weekly theme, giving us: manque, redux, redivivus, emeritus, and regnant. I'm not sure what maliceaforethought (apart from being a rather ugly combination and probably gramatically wrong, but accepted through common usage) has to do with it! It's two words - malice aforethought - another postpositive adjectival use. Poetically one can put any adjective one pleases postpositively, eg "It came upon a midnight clear" -- Larry Lard Replies to group please |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Larry Lard wrote: wrote: John Rowland wrote: John B wrote: wrote: BARONS COURT / Barons Court (not so much an anomaly as simply both being wrong, with the absence of an apostrophe) PARSONS GREEN / Parsons Green (ditto) "To court" is a verb, and barons is a legitimate plural...having "green" as a verb would be pushing it a bit, though. You can write "persons unknown" or "malice aforethought", so why not "parsons green"? Because the green is that of the parson, i.e. it belongs (or historically did) belong to the parson whose church is on its Western side, hence a possessive noun, requiring an apostrophe. Methinks Mr Rowland might be aware of that. "Persons unknown" is not a possessive noun, i.e. the "unknown" is not the property of the "persons", The word "unknown" in this context is an adjective, simply describing the type of persons, i.e. "unknown persons". Indeed it is less than a month since AWAD (www.wordsmith.org) had 'postpositive adjectives' as its weekly theme, giving us: manque, redux, redivivus, emeritus, and regnant. I'm not sure what maliceaforethought (apart from being a rather ugly combination and probably gramatically wrong, but accepted through common usage) has to do with it! It's two words - malice aforethought - another postpositive adjectival use. Poetically one can put any adjective one pleases postpositively, eg "It came upon a midnight clear" -- Larry Lard Replies to group please Sorry, Larry it was a mistake on my part to make malice aforethought into one word! As a lawyer, I put forward the excuse that I have only ever seen the word aforthought preceded by the word malice, and had subconsciously conjoined them into one word! Here's another thread, then, for the literary-minded members of this forum: what other words have you ever seen preceding the word aforethought? Love aforethought? Wonder aforethought? Spite aforethought? Awe aforethought? Answers please..... Marc. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
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St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"John Rowland" wrote in message Why not? About five tube stations are named after pubs, and a pub called "Everything in the garden is green and lovely" is not too hard to imagine... or is it? Surely some pub names are not noun phrases? I've never seen a pub name that was not a noun phrase. If you can find one, I'd be well interested. Oh.. Actually, yes, there's The Case Is Altered at Fosdyke. Richard [in SG19] -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
|
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Richard M Willis wrote:
"thoss" wrote in message Have you ever seen a green parson? Yes. The parson at the place where I used to live dutifully grew his own veggies, composted the waste therefrom, never used styrofoam cups, and had no car. Did you live between Fulham Broadway and Putney Bridge, perchance...? -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Richard M Willis wrote:
Why not? About five tube stations are named after pubs, and a pub called "Everything in the garden is green and lovely" is not too hard to imagine... or is it? Surely some pub names are not noun phrases? I've never seen a pub name that was not a noun phrase. If you can find one, I'd be well interested. Oh.. Actually, yes, there's The Case Is Altered at Fosdyke. In London... Ain't Nothing But Blues in Soho The Defectors Weld at Shepherd's Bush Dicey's The Galway Hooker at Neasden Dream Bags Jaguar Shoes at Hoxton Ha! Ha! in various places Hung, Drawn & Quartered at Tower Hill Liberty Bounds at Tower Hill Monkey Chews at Primrose Hill 1802 at West India Quay Rock The Boat at Waterloo Tally Ho in Finchley ....not counting single-not-nouns like Imbibe and Lush (well, technically Lush is a noun, but I doubt that's the sense they're going for...) -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
John B wrote:
I've never seen a pub name that was not a noun phrase. If you can find one, I'd be well interested. ...single-not-nouns like Imbibe and Lush (well, technically Lush is a noun, but I doubt that's the sense they're going for...) I'd say that's exactly the sense they are going for. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Richard M Willis wrote:
I've never seen a pub name that was not a noun phrase. If you can find one, I'd be well interested. Oh.. Actually, yes, there's The Case Is Altered at Fosdyke. In Peep Show, Super Hans wanted to call his pub "Free The Paedos". |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006, John B wrote:
John Rowland wrote: I've never seen a pub name that was not a noun phrase. If you can find one, I'd be well interested. ...single-not-nouns like Imbibe and Lush (well, technically Lush is a noun, but I doubt that's the sense they're going for...) I'd say that's exactly the sense they are going for. Not sure about that - it's not exactly a Walkabout-ish "how much can I drink before I go to hospital" venue. I think they're going for lush-as-adjective; I doubt its Young And Beautiful target audience even know "lush" in its 70's-term-for-****head sense. My housemates (barring one Scot) didn't know that meaning. I don't know if they're the target audience; they're young, though, so that's at least one out of two. tom -- Programming is a skill best acquired by practice and example rather than from books -- Alan Turing |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"John B" wrote in message
oups.com... wrote: Mark Brader wrote: Although, the anomalies on the Underground are curious! Have a look at the following, PLACE / Station name anomalies: EARLS COURT / Earl's Court COLLIER'S WOOD / Colliers Wood ST. JOHN'S WOOD / St. Johns Wood In the foregoing, all except Earl's Court, the Underground station has omitted a necessary apostrophe. Just out of interest, where did you get the capitalised place names from? Merton Council spells Colliers Wood without an apostrophe. And Westminster Council spells St John's Wood both ways (as does LUL). The local football team, Colliers Wood United is spelt everywhere without an apostrophe. -- Richard |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 19:33:46 +0100, "Richard Rundle"
wrote: "John B" wrote in message roups.com... wrote: Mark Brader wrote: Although, the anomalies on the Underground are curious! Have a look at the following, PLACE / Station name anomalies: EARLS COURT / Earl's Court COLLIER'S WOOD / Colliers Wood ST. JOHN'S WOOD / St. Johns Wood In the foregoing, all except Earl's Court, the Underground station has omitted a necessary apostrophe. Just out of interest, where did you get the capitalised place names from? Merton Council spells Colliers Wood without an apostrophe. And Westminster Council spells St John's Wood both ways (as does LUL). The local football team, Colliers Wood United is spelt everywhere without an apostrophe. Speaking of football teams, reminds me of the bizareness with Borehamwood (or is it Boreham Wood?) -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
"thoss" wrote in message Yes, but if plural it should be Barons' Court. What sort of Baron is it, if he shares a court with other Barons ? If you, as a Baron, don't have a court of your own, you're not a real Baron. Richard [n SG19] -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Richard M Willis wrote:
"thoss" wrote in message Yes, but if plural it should be Barons' Court. What sort of Baron is it, if he shares a court with other Barons ? If you, as a Baron, don't have a court of your own, you're not a real Baron. Maybe it's a tennis court where all the barons play each other... while being watched by green parsons. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Richard Rundle wrote:
"John B" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Mark Brader wrote: Although, the anomalies on the Underground are curious! Have a look at the following, PLACE / Station name anomalies: EARLS COURT / Earl's Court COLLIER'S WOOD / Colliers Wood ST. JOHN'S WOOD / St. Johns Wood In the foregoing, all except Earl's Court, the Underground station has omitted a necessary apostrophe. Just out of interest, where did you get the capitalised place names from? Merton Council spells Colliers Wood without an apostrophe. And Westminster Council spells St John's Wood both ways (as does LUL). The local football team, Colliers Wood United is spelt everywhere without an apostrophe. Maybe the fans haven't really got the hang of apostrophes... See also: Queens Park Rangers. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
The roundels are wrong.
His name is John, not Johns. Therefore, the apostrophe HAS to go between the n and the s. Any other signage is the product of illiterate designers. JOHN'S MARTIN'S In the case of plural nouns, the apostrophe always goes afterwards. So SPANIARDS' INN if it refers to more than one Spaniard, or else SPANIARD'S INN Where there is some discussion is if the given name already ends with S. Eg JAMES'S PALACE or JAMES' PALACE But never JAMES PALACE The official line is, certainly as far as the University of London is concerned where I did my studies and I am a sessional lecturer: If it's Greek, it's always S' If it's not, it's up to the individual as long as he or she is consistent throughout. Therefore, always Achilles' heel, Eros' statue, Nikolaidis' penalty shot, Stavros' kebab house, Bacchus' wine, Androcles' lion, but if it's not Greek, you can say James's Square or James' Square as long as it's consistent throughout. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
In message . com, John
B writes Richard M Willis wrote: Why not? About five tube stations are named after pubs, and a pub called "Everything in the garden is green and lovely" is not too hard to imagine... or is it? Surely some pub names are not noun phrases? I've never seen a pub name that was not a noun phrase. If you can find one, I'd be well interested. Oh.. Actually, yes, there's The Case Is Altered at Fosdyke. In London... Ain't Nothing But Blues in Soho The Defectors Weld at Shepherd's Bush Dicey's The Galway Hooker at Neasden Dream Bags Jaguar Shoes at Hoxton Ha! Ha! in various places Hung, Drawn & Quartered at Tower Hill Liberty Bounds at Tower Hill Monkey Chews at Primrose Hill 1802 at West India Quay Rock The Boat at Waterloo Tally Ho in Finchley My favourite (and claimed to be the longest pub name in London) is the "I Am the Only Running Footman" in Charles Street, Mayfair. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
JMUpton2000 wrote: Something I wondered as I took a rare journey north of Baker Street on the Jubilee Line the other day. The on board scrolling displays and the tube maps say it is spelt St John's Wood with apostrophe but the platform roundels omit it. So which is right? Both, neither who knows. On Wikipedia the principle that a lot are generally happy with (at least the last time I'm aware this came up) is to use the current tube map spelling on the basis that station decorations take a lot longer to change But hasn't St John's Wood recently been refurbished? If the platform roundels are new, were the apostrophes also omitted on the old ones? and some platforms use multiple stations (e.g. King's Cross St. Pancras Circle/H&C/Met) so this is the only real consistent standard. Not sure what point you're making there. King's Cross St Pancras is AFAIK the consistent name for all the LU platforms there. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
Tristán White wrote: The roundels are wrong. His name is John, not Johns. Therefore, the apostrophe HAS to go between the n and the s. Any other signage is the product of illiterate designers. JOHN'S MARTIN'S In the case of plural nouns, the apostrophe always goes afterwards. So SPANIARDS' INN if it refers to more than one Spaniard, or else SPANIARD'S INN Where there is some discussion is if the given name already ends with S. Eg JAMES'S PALACE or JAMES' PALACE But never JAMES PALACE The official line is, certainly as far as the University of London is concerned where I did my studies and I am a sessional lecturer: If it's Greek, it's always S' If it's not, it's up to the individual as long as he or she is consistent throughout. Therefore, always Achilles' heel, Eros' statue, Nikolaidis' penalty shot, Stavros' kebab house, Bacchus' wine, Androcles' lion, but if it's not Greek, you can say James's Square or James' Square as long as it's consistent throughout. Whilst agreeing with almost everyting you have written, your final paragraph is somewhat contentious. It would imply that Jesus was Greek! In her amusing book, "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" Lynn Truss (mistakenly, I think) states the rule as being that one omits the "s" where the proper noun is of "ancient" origin, whatever that may mean. But she then goes on to disprove this rule by quoting "St. Thomas' Hospital" as being an exception to the rule! I am always consistent in omitting the final "s", and as a rule that cannot be faulted. Marc. |
St Johns Wood or St John's Wood?
JMUpton2000 wrote: Something I wondered as I took a rare journey north of Baker Street on the Jubilee Line the other day. The on board scrolling displays and the tube maps say it is spelt St John's Wood with apostrophe but the platform roundels omit it. OT - one end of a street "Princes gardens" other end "Prince's gardens" on the signs |
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