I know this is a bit of an old chestnut, but having sifted through a
few previous discussions here on Google Groups I'm still a little
unclear on what the ticketing rules are. I'm hoping the oracles of this
ng might be able to offer clarification.


(1) A ticket from Herne Hill (south London) to London Terminals is
obviously valid to Blackfriars, am I correct in saying it's valid to
City Thameslink as well? I presume it's not valid any further north
than that.

(2) For travel from Herne Hill to Farringdon or Kings Cross Thameslink
presumably a ticket is issued with either of those specific
destinations named, is this the case?

(3) When travelling from the north of the Thameslink route (say
Cricklewood) into central London, are tickets issued to 'London
Terminals' or to specific named stations (e.g. Kings Cross Thameslink /
City Thameslink)?

And if a passenger is coming from Luton on a ticket with the
destination 'London Terminals' can they go any further south on the
Thameslink route than Kings Cross Thameslink?

(4) 'London Thameslink' was mentioned in previous posts as a
destination - does this mean anything, or was it just a virtual
destination used for some reason solely during the Thameslink blockade?


If anyone can throw some light on this it'd be much appreciated.

On 5 Jul 2006 08:23:45 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

I know this is a bit of an old chestnut, but having sifted through a
few previous discussions here on Google Groups I'm still a little
unclear on what the ticketing rules are. I'm hoping the oracles of this
ng might be able to offer clarification.

I'm probably way out of date but here goes.


(1) A ticket from Herne Hill (south London) to London Terminals is
obviously valid to Blackfriars, am I correct in saying it's valid to
City Thameslink as well? I presume it's not valid any further north
than that.

I believe this is correct.

(2) For travel from Herne Hill to Farringdon or Kings Cross Thameslink
presumably a ticket is issued with either of those specific
destinations named, is this the case?

No it would be issued to U1 and would thus be valid to any LU station in
Zone 1.

(3) When travelling from the north of the Thameslink route (say
Cricklewood) into central London, are tickets issued to 'London
Terminals' or to specific named stations (e.g. Kings Cross Thameslink /
City Thameslink)?

To the specific named station once north of Kings Cross Thameslink.

And if a passenger is coming from Luton on a ticket with the
destination 'London Terminals' can they go any further south on the
Thameslink route than Kings Cross Thameslink?

No they cannot except on peak trains to Moorgate - I think!

(4) 'London Thameslink' was mentioned in previous posts as a
destination - does this mean anything, or was it just a virtual
destination used for some reason solely during the Thameslink blockade?

No idea at all.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 5 Jul 2006 08:23:45 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

I know this is a bit of an old chestnut, but having sifted through a
few previous discussions here on Google Groups I'm still a little
unclear on what the ticketing rules are. I'm hoping the oracles of this
ng might be able to offer clarification.

Some of your questions are answered on page A5 of the NFM:

http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM/sectiona.pdf

Basically, a ticket to London Terminals is not valid for journeys to
or via Farringdon.

The appropriate ticket for journeys to or via Farringdon depends on
where you're travelling to, where you're travelling from, and whether
it's a season or a single/return.

Thanks v much for your answers Paul. I've highlighted a possible
confusion below...

Paul Corfield wrote:
On 5 Jul 2006 08:23:45 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

(snip)

(2) For travel from Herne Hill to Farringdon or Kings Cross Thameslink
presumably a ticket is issued with either of those specific
destinations named, is this the case?

No it would be issued to U1 and would thus be valid to any LU station in
Zone 1.

(3) When travelling from the north of the Thameslink route (say
Cricklewood) into central London, are tickets issued to 'London
Terminals' or to specific named stations (e.g. Kings Cross Thameslink /
City Thameslink)?

To the specific named station once north of Kings Cross Thameslink.

I think there's a bit of confusion here - for this third query I was
wondering what happens when travelling *from* north London / north of
London to central London - .e.g. for a Cricklewood to KX Thameslink
journey would the ticket issued be to the destination 'London
Terminals'.

Presumably if the journey was Cricklewood to Farringdon or City
Thameslink the ticket would be issued to U1 - I wonder if this would
also be the case if their destination was Blackfriars or Elephant &
Castle?

On 5 Jul 2006 08:23:45 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

I know this is a bit of an old chestnut, but having sifted through a
few previous discussions here on Google Groups I'm still a little
unclear on what the ticketing rules are. I'm hoping the oracles of this
ng might be able to offer clarification.


(1) A ticket from Herne Hill (south London) to London Terminals is
obviously valid to Blackfriars, am I correct in saying it's valid to
City Thameslink as well? I presume it's not valid any further north
than that.

Correct,

(2) For travel from Herne Hill to Farringdon or Kings Cross Thameslink
presumably a ticket is issued with either of those specific
destinations named, is this the case?

(see 3)

(3) When travelling from the north of the Thameslink route (say
Cricklewood) into central London, are tickets issued to 'London
Terminals' or to specific named stations (e.g. Kings Cross Thameslink /
City Thameslink)?

Dunno about stations inside the LU zones.

And if a passenger is coming from Luton on a ticket with the
destination 'London Terminals' can they go any further south on the
Thameslink route than Kings Cross Thameslink?

No. (See special notice at Farringdon about this.)

(4) 'London Thameslink' was mentioned in previous posts as a
destination - does this mean anything, or was it just a virtual
destination used for some reason solely during the Thameslink blockade?

London Thameslink is still used and means any TL station as far as
London Bridge/ Elephant. (And also I believe Waterloo/Charing Cross
via LB.) Some ticket machines only offer this and not the individual
stations which can be puzzling.

If anyone can throw some light on this it'd be much appreciated.

PS I once needed and got a ticket from Kings Cross TL to Farringdon.
It was cheaper than the Underground and railcard discount was applied.
Can't remember what it said though!

Ticket offices sometimes sell you a zonal ticket when there is a
cheaper non-Underground version available; worth checking for this,
--
Peter Lawrence

asdf wrote:

Some of your questions are answered on page A5 of the NFM:

http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM/sectiona.pdf

Basically, a ticket to London Terminals is not valid for journeys to
or via Farringdon.

The appropriate ticket for journeys to or via Farringdon depends on
where you're travelling to, where you're travelling from, and whether
it's a season or a single/return.


Thanks for that, as far as I can see page A5 answers nearly all my
questions (though it doesn't entirely answer question (2)).

For the record I'll provide the answer to my own queries (quoted text
is from my original post)...


(1) A ticket from Herne Hill (south London) to London Terminals is
obviously valid to Blackfriars, am I correct in saying it's valid to
City Thameslink as well? I presume it's not valid any further north
than that.

Any ticket from the south to London Terminals is valid as far as City
Thameslink and no further.


(2) For travel from Herne Hill to Farringdon or Kings Cross Thameslink
presumably a ticket is issued with either of those specific
destinations named, is this the case?

For a journey to Farringdon the NFM says "where possible use specific
fares from Section B2 or C" - i.e. it would be issued to 'Farringdon
Und'. The NFM doesn't specifically say what to do if such a fare is
unavailable but on reading other information on the page I presume a
ticket to U1 would be issued.

The NFM does not specify what ticket would be issued for journeys from
the south to Kings Cross Thameslink - I'd be interested to know if it
would be issued to KX Thameslink specifically or just to U1. Does
anyone know for sure?


(3) When travelling from the north of the Thameslink route (say
Cricklewood) into central London, are tickets issued to 'London
Terminals' or to specific named stations (e.g. Kings Cross Thameslink /
City Thameslink)?

"From stations between Bedford and West Hampstead Thameslink inclusive,
tickets (other than Season Tickets) are available to London Thameslink
(NLC 4452) and such tickets are valid to ALL the stations on the map."

(The stations on the map are KX Thameslink, Farringdon, Barbican,
Moorgate, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant &
Castle.)

"Season tickets from stations between Bedford and West Hampstead
Thameslink inclusive must be issued to the customer's chosen named
station, e.g. King's Cross
Thameslink, Farringdon Und, Moorgate Und, London Bridge."

And if a passenger is coming from Luton on a ticket with the
destination 'London Terminals' can they go any further south on the
Thameslink route than Kings Cross Thameslink?

No, KX Thameslink is as far as they could go. Passengers who want to go
to the central London Thameslink stations would be sold a ticket to
'London Thameslink' as detailed above.


(4) 'London Thameslink' was mentioned in previous posts as a
destination - does this mean anything, or was it just a virtual
destination used for some reason solely during the Thameslink blockade?

Yes it means something - see the answer to question (3) above.

Mizter T wrote:

The NFM does not specify what ticket would be issued for journeys from
the south to Kings Cross Thameslink - I'd be interested to know if it
would be issued to KX Thameslink specifically or just to U1. Does
anyone know for sure?

At Gatwick Airport recently I purchased a single to King's Cross
Thameslink. The ticket stated that KXTL was the destination, and it
bore the words "Route Thameslink".

PaulO

Southern seem to have not read these instructions on the ATOC page, as
I have numerous problems with this issue.

I travel from Brockley (South London, near New Cross) to Kings Cross
Thameslink. A return fare for KXT costs £1.60, the same as a return to
London Terminals (that's with railcard discount). Herein lies the
problem. If you go to the ticket machine, and request a KXT ticket,
you'll be confronted with two options - KXT, or KXT (not via
Underground). Both of these cost £1.60. I generally choose the first
one (as it implies you can go via Underground... is that true?).
However, when it prints this ticket, it prints out a London Terminals
ticket. If you do choose the not via Underground ticket, you do get a
KXT ticket.

Sometimes I go from New Cross, or St Johns, both on South Eastern,
rather than Southern. Their price for KXT is different (15p more than
London Terminals), and therefore it doesn't have the problem of
printing the London Terminals ticket.

I assume the problem is that Southern haven't programmed their
ticketing system properly, which is why I get a ticket for London
Terminals. Fortunately, the gates at KXT will more or less let anything
through, shown by my getting through once despite having put my return
ticket in rather than my out part!

Thanks for your reply Peter...

Peter Lawrence wrote:
On 5 Jul 2006 08:23:45 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

(snip)

And if a passenger is coming from Luton on a ticket with the
destination 'London Terminals' can they go any further south on the
Thameslink route than Kings Cross Thameslink?

No. (See special notice at Farringdon about this.)

Doh! Not a great place for such a notice as once a passenger's got to
Farringdon it's a bit too late - they're already one stop further south
than they should be!


(4) 'London Thameslink' was mentioned in previous posts as a
destination - does this mean anything, or was it just a virtual
destination used for some reason solely during the Thameslink blockade?

London Thameslink is still used and means any TL station as far as
London Bridge/ Elephant. (And also I believe Waterloo/Charing Cross
via LB.) Some ticket machines only offer this and not the individual
stations which can be puzzling.

As I've since discovered (courtesy of consulting the NFM) 'London
Thameslink' tickets are only issued from stations on the north of the
route, and as you say are valid as far as London Bridge/E&C.

I'm surprised that a 'London Thameslink' ticket would also be valid to
Waterloo East or Charing Cross (via LB), I suppose I can see a certain
logic in it but nothing like that is mentioned in the NFM. It'd be
great of anyone could confirm/deny that for certain.


PS I once needed and got a ticket from Kings Cross TL to Farringdon.
It was cheaper than the Underground and railcard discount was applied.
Can't remember what it said though!

Interesting, I would've expected that the ticket for that journey would
be a U1 underground fare but it seems there are Thameslink only fares
as well.

The Trainline (unhelpfully) quotes both £1.50 and £2.40 for a KX
Thameslink - Farringdon single, but after querying The Trainline a bit
more it seems that the single fare for any Thameslink journey for the
central section from KX Thameslink through to Elephant & Castle/ London
Bridge is £1.50 single (£1 w/railcard) and £3.00 return (£1.50
w/railcard).

So, a Thameslink single is cheaper than the £3 tube cash single and
the same price as the Oyster single fare (£1.50), and even cheaper
with a railcard.

I bet you can't buy the Thameslink-only fare from the LU ticket office
at Farringdon though!


Ticket offices sometimes sell you a zonal ticket when there is a
cheaper non-Underground version available; worth checking for this.

Quite. The received wisdom appears to be that any Thameslink journey
that passes Farringdon requires a zonal ticket to U1, but this received
wisdom also appears to be wrong.

Whilst, as the NFM says, "some special rules apply" to Thameslink fares
for journeys in the central section, it's not simply a case that LU
fares apply there instead of National Rail fares - i.e. it's not that
special a special case!

I can quite understand how this received wisdom took hold though - it's
a simple and concise rule of thumb in a world of complex fare
structures! Nontheless it is mistaken.

SamB wrote:
Southern seem to have not read these instructions on the ATOC page, as
I have numerous problems with this issue.

I travel from Brockley (South London, near New Cross) to Kings Cross
Thameslink. A return fare for KXT costs £1.60, the same as a return to
London Terminals (that's with railcard discount). Herein lies the
problem. If you go to the ticket machine, and request a KXT ticket,
you'll be confronted with two options - KXT, or KXT (not via
Underground). Both of these cost £1.60. I generally choose the first
one (as it implies you can go via Underground... is that true?).
However, when it prints this ticket, it prints out a London Terminals
ticket. If you do choose the not via Underground ticket, you do get a
KXT ticket.

Sometimes I go from New Cross, or St Johns, both on South Eastern,
rather than Southern. Their price for KXT is different (15p more than
London Terminals), and therefore it doesn't have the problem of
printing the London Terminals ticket.

I assume the problem is that Southern haven't programmed their
ticketing system properly, which is why I get a ticket for London
Terminals. Fortunately, the gates at KXT will more or less let anything
through, shown by my getting through once despite having put my return
ticket in rather than my out part!


Interesting. My initial reaction, from having heard similar tales from
other people, is that you'd be correct in saying Southern have made a
mess of programming their ticket machines. Doesn't really give one an
awful lot of confidence that they'll spew out the right ticket does
it?!

I guess you could always write to Southern about this, whether your
comments will reach anyone who's got any responsability for this is
another thing!

It's also interesting to hear the gates at KX Thameslink don't appear
to be very discriminating. I guess it's possible that either:
(a) whilst your ticket has the destination printed as London Terminals,
the magnetic strip is coded correctly, though this does seem unlikely;
(b) the gates at KX Thameslink accept 'London Terminals' tickets as
they are valid for journeys to there from points north on the
Thameslink route.

It's still somewhat bizarre that the gates accepted your return rather
than your outbound ticket, just as well it gave it back to you.

To be fair I suppose that thet KX Thameslink gates have to accept
several different ticket types so perhaps it's just good sense that
they're not too discriminating. That said, a ticket is either valid or
it isn't. But of course in your case you've been sold a ticket that was
advertised as being valid though it seemingly isn't, so it's just as
well you're let through the gates!