On 2 Sep 2006 09:22:22 -0700, "Jonathan Morris" wrote:

If you threw away the key it would! They would NEVER get out in that
case. Forget whether it deters anyone else turning to a life of crime;
you've at least dealt with the problem in hand.

I object to paying my good tax money to keep miscreants like this in jail for
even a few months, much less the rest of their lives.

There are a couple of tried and true ways of dealing with this kind of person:

1) Make them clean the outside of the trains they (or others) have spoiled.
Then make them clean the insides of trains for a long period of community
service. They won't want to try it again. The only problem with this is that
the workers whose jobs these are aren't keen to let the miscreants take them
over. The solution to that is to make the workers the managers of these kids
while they're doing the work.

2) If they're actually artistic, besides (1) give them a legal canvas to do
their work on. It worked in New York City when I lived there. This does not
work unless (1) is also used.

3) Ensure that train yards are well-protected with fences, guard dogs, barbed
wire, and CCTV cameras that work in the dark. Does nothing for the miscreants,
but makes it so much less easy to do the dirty deed that they may try less
difficult canvases such as walls. Then apply (1) and (2) to them when they're
caught at it.
--
Chris Hansen
chrishansenhome at btinternet dot com

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 18:31:20 on Sat,
2 Sep 2006, John Rowland
remarked:
Have a classification system, and then have separate bantam
prisons, heavyweight prisons etc.

They do.

Indeed, which is why the two youths in question have, in fact, been
sentenced to periods of detention in a Young Offenders Institution,
rather than imprisonment.

We don't know if these two have any previous, or if the decision to
impose an immediate custodial sentence was solely due to the
seriousness of the offences, but he fact is that custodial sentences
need to be available, the shortcomings of the prison system
notwithstanding.

Today's Daily Telegraph runs a glossy 3-page piece spread glamourising
so-called "graffers" and their work.

On 2/9/06 20:46, " wrote:

Today's Daily Telegraph runs a glossy 3-page piece spread glamourising
so-called "graffers" and their work.

Graffiti artist Banksy lives and often works in this part of Bristol and has
become a much-respected member of the local community.

For those of you unfamiliar with his work, take a look at
http://www.banksy.co.uk/menu.html

On 2 Sep 2006 09:44:44 -0700, Jonathan Morris wrote in
. com, seen in
uk.railway:
Graham Murray wrote:

Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well
done' graffiti actually do much harm? Some of it can be very artistic
and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are
concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish
colour schemes used by some TOCs.

How much is well done? Mostly it's a simple tag, which requires no
skill (take a pen and paper, now scribble some initials or a name; hey
presto.. your very own tag).

I'd agree that some stuff you see doesn't look too bad, but it's not up
to you or I to decide whether we should be 'adding to the character of
an area'. Covering the cab window of a train probably isn't
particularly safe either.

More important though is the fact that people don't feel safe around
graffitti, even if a lot of it is done when they're not there (rather
than the image of a train being attacked with helpless passengers
looking on).

http://ross.photobook.org.uk/p33582315.html is a good example of
bog-standard graffiti. It's not "well done", or artistic. It's just a
mess - and when it was done it quite clearly obscured the carriage
windows.

There is some artistic graffiti, but IMX it's probably less than one
piece in a thousand at best. Most graffiti is little more than damage.


This lot even advertise their work: http://www.milk.ten.lt - the
website URL was scrawled all over Lincoln last year.
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.

Demonstration of poor photography: http://www.rosspix.me.uk - updated with NL & LU pix
AD: http://www.merciacharters.co.uk for European charters occasionally gripped by me

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Brian
Begg-Robertson gently breathed:

Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by
giving them the birch. We have whole areas of the country where the gun is
king and people cary them knowing that to do so shortens their own life
expectancy to mid 20s if they are lucky, and you expect them to respect the
birch. Kids these days are savages. Lock them up, throw the key away,
pretend that it will make them better people. It wont!

I can't really follow what you mean here - are you saying that as they
don't respect anything, we should lock them up forever, or that we
should just give in and ignore them, or something else?

Carrying a gun isn't the same as actually being shot - because everyone
thinks "it won't happen to me". Same way thrill-seeking teenagers take
silly risks because they assume the "bad stuff" always happens to
someone else.

If those caught doing anti-social things were quickly and painfully
punished, *and* if detection rates were improved so that said thugs knew
they would eventually get caught and dealt with (this being the
difficult and expensive bit that most Daily Wail types forget about),
then I believe we would see a change.

As for "making them better people" - I never have subscribed to the idea
that you can reform people. People can choose to reform themselves, and
when they so choose the results can be amazing. But it has to come from
within someone, it doesn't come from outside, no matter how many
"oppertunities" or facilities you put in place.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan ISP!
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com

Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
"Pyromancer" wrote in message
...
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Brian
Begg-Robertson gently breathed:
wrote in message
roups.com...
Solario wrote:
Peter Masson wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5306886.stm
Peter

Reasonably good news, :-)

Punishment should fit the crime. I think a 1024 community hours
cleaning trains may have been more constructive. But, this is
certainly beter than the usual slap in the wrist.

It's good to see that His Honour Judge Paul Worsley, Q.C., only
recently appointed as a Judge (and a good friend of mine) has shown his
Yorkshire commonsense and handed down a weighty sentence to these
scumbags.

Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that
a
lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a
thorough
education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the
pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the
real
world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK.

Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept
of what a prison is for.

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage. Far
better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just
learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on
giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner
to run.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan
ISP!
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk
http://www.revival.stormshadow.com

Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like that by
giving them the birch. We have whole areas of the country where the gun is
king and people cary them knowing that to do so shortens their own life
expectancy to mid 20s if they are lucky, and you expect them to respect the
birch. Kids these days are savages. Lock them up, throw the key away,
pretend that it will make them better people. It wont!

Brian.

Brian, do you really think that those who carry knives etc. do so
"knowing" that this reduces their life-expectancy to mid-20s? What
evidence do you have that they take a blind bit of notice of statistics
such as those quoted by you? I'd wager, however, that they would take a
bit of notice of some severe humiliation and pain - not the threat of
it (which would be disregarded in the same way as your statistics) but
the actual experience of it. The Singapore example tends to suggest
that those who are birched rarely reoffend.

Marc.

Tim Fenton wrote:
"Pyromancer" wrote in message
...

Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that
a
lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a
thorough
education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the
pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the
real
world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK.

Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept
of what a prison is for.

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back and
tell us how wonderful it was.

Well, if I was found with an album of graffiti images and dozens of
spray cans in my home and claimed "mistaken identity" (as someone I
once prosecuted was - and acquitted!), and had the crap beaten out of
me, I don't expect I'd get much sympathy.

Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

Why not? We used to have as harsh a penal code (if not harsher) than
that in Singapore and it was not only "tolerated" but an example to the
World. From where do you think Singapore took its example?

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution, the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

What evidence do you have that wanton vandalism and hooliganism by
youths (the crimes we are dealing with in this thread) is worse in
Saudi Arabia?



Far
better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just
learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on
giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner
to run.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know. But
overall, Brian's statement has much to commend it. Perhaps you'd like to
tell us which rights should be denied to your fellow human beings?

Here's a list of "rights" I'd happily deny to my fellow human beings:-

The right to make others' lives a misery
The right to cost the State and private companies millions of Pounds in
clearing up the mess made
The right to vandalise any property, public or private
The right to enter private property without the owner's consent
The right to act offensively with impunity
The right to stick one's thumb up at any form of authority
The right to get away with whatever one likes
The right to get away with two offences with only a "Final Warning" for
each
The right to receive a "referral order" for the third offence
The right to get away with 5 or 6 breaches of a referral order before
being re-sentenced
The right to get away with 5 or 6 breaches of any other community
sentence before a custodial sentence is even considered

These are the "rights" which these vandals enjoy and which I would
happily deny them.


Marc.

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

Graham Murray wrote:
" writes:

Well, I'd suggest that for the next year or so a lot more money will be
saved by the Police, railway companies etc. in not having the clear up
after these two every time they feel like airbrushing a train or two.

Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well
done' graffiti actually do much harm?

Of course it does. I don't want to travel on a train that looks as if
it's a piece of crap. Moreover, much of the vandalism that these two
were responsible for (according to the pictures I've seen) is over the
windows of carriages. I don't want to travel in a train whose windows
have been obscured by this filth.


Some of it can be very artistic
and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are
concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish
colour schemes used by some TOCs.

I agree with the comment about garish liveries, but tolerated vandalism
is hardly the solution.

More seriously, I have seen speed signs and junction markers on the
line between Clapham and Waterloo totally obscured by spray paint. That
can hardly add to the safety of railways.

Marc.

John Mara wrote:
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:

Well you can tell your good friend that I for one object to the fact that a
lot more money is now going to be spent on these scumbags having a thorough
education in every other type of crime. If you took your head out of the
pages of the Daily Mail once in a while you might discover that, in the real
world, PRISON DOESN'T WORK.

Aren't the railways in Britain privatized? Why is protecting their
property of any concern to the government? This is one of the problems
with privatization schemes. The private companies take the profitable
parts of the operation and leave the difficult problems to the government.

John Mara

That's a curious interpretation of the duty of government! My house is
private property too, but I'd be pretty shocked if I were told that
someone who vandalised it would not be searched for or prosecuted
because it was private property and therefore my duty to find and
obtain redress privately.

John, you misunderstand the purpose of the criminal justice system. It
is not to obtain redress between citizens - which is why compensation
is rarely paid and only in nominal sums. Crimes are committed in breach
of The Queen's peace and that is why criminals are prosecuted in the
name of The Queen. That is why even if the owner of property vandalised
cannot be ascertained, or someone found in possession of stolen goods
where the owner can not be identified, or where an assault takes place
and the "victim" has even given his consent to the assault, there will
STILL be a criminal prosecution.

Marc.