On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:44:13 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

[white city development]

The fact that it has almost as many shops as Oxford Street (265 versus
about 300) is overwhelming. The footfall on Oxford Street is immense,
and it is served by four Tube stations, five Tube lines and dozens of
bus routes. White City will also have four-ish stations, but will be
served by three lines (and the West London Line is nor will be as
frequent as the others) and about 13 bus routes.

Although the public transport improvements are very welcome, I couldn't
help but be rather disappointed by the modal split prediction - 60% by
PT, and large part of the remainder by car (since the complex will have
4000 car parking spaces and direct access to the A40). Local residents
(including myself) are rather concerned about the impact it will have on
the Holland Park Roundabout, which already struggles to function in the
evenings. All we can hope is that the parking charges are sufficient to
encourage the use of public transport whereever possible - but I'm not
convinced that they will.

Given what has happened with the Metrocentre up in the North East I
think you can expect lots of pressure for road development in the coming
years. The Metrocentre is also huge and while it has some very frequent
bus services and a regional rail service the level of car usage has
increased hugely. There has been a programme of road improvements to
prevent the A1 / A69 grinding to a halt. I can see exactly the same
happening with the A40 and the North South route although the real
question is what will get knocked down to make the space. From memory
there isn't much scope for demolition to widen roads or restructure
junctions.

While I can see why people would be attracted to White City there will
be huge transport issues associated with the development that a couple
of new bus stations, a tube station and a railway station will not
solve. People will go by car and that will clog up a significant part of
West London - next target for a congestion charge zone extension
anybody? It will be interesting to see how TfL plan their changes to
bus services compared to the market based approach for the Metrocentre
and to a lesser extent Lakeside and Bluewater.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:44:13 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:
4000 car parking spaces and direct access to the A40). Local residents
(including myself) are rather concerned about the impact it will have on
the Holland Park Roundabout, which already struggles to function in the
evenings.
Oh yes, locals like me are worried too. I'll be within walking
distance of this behemoth. Given how bad Wood Lane/HarrowRd can get,
the Kengestion expansion will remove rat runs through W10 and then
4500 cars emerge in waves at commute times just like Bluewater, its
cousin in size terms (2x BrentX).

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:29:39 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
....
While I can see why people would be attracted to White City there will
be huge transport issues associated with the development that a couple
of new bus stations, a tube station and a railway station will not
solve. People will go by car and that will clog up a significant part of
West London - next target for a congestion charge zone extension
anybody?

Doubt it on the CC. Sainsburys in Ladbroke Grove (canal end) has
expanded massively and is excluded from the Kengestion expansion of
2007 despite its location. I can't see White City - "Westfield London"
according to LondonLite [see below] - being belted by Ken since it
straddles the axes that would remain outside any charging, and it's
all private off the A40/A219/xM41.

Sad to see none of you were apparently invited to this announcement
party 17 Sept in the Natural History Museum where the official name
was given (sez "LondonLite" ex ESLite, party attended by Phil "the mrs
owns the biz" Green and various famous people I've never heard of).

Same paper has these details:
* size of 37 soccer pitches
* 4 flagship stores (Waitrose, Debs, M&S, Next)
* 265 other sto incl a "luxury mall over 3 floors of 'top designer
brands'"
* 4500 parking spaces - yikes!
* 40 places to eat, spa & gym, arts & culture 'atrium' (wotdat?)
* 2 new bus terminals, 1 new tube stn, 1 overland
Finally "...traffic jams all around" (seriously, it ends on that).
--
Old anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke
So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:44:13 +0100, Dave Arquati
wrote:

[white city development]

The fact that it has almost as many shops as Oxford Street (265 versus
about 300) is overwhelming. The footfall on Oxford Street is immense,
and it is served by four Tube stations, five Tube lines and dozens of
bus routes. White City will also have four-ish stations, but will be
served by three lines (and the West London Line is nor will be as
frequent as the others) and about 13 bus routes.

Although the public transport improvements are very welcome, I couldn't
help but be rather disappointed by the modal split prediction - 60% by
PT, and large part of the remainder by car (since the complex will have
4000 car parking spaces and direct access to the A40). Local residents
(including myself) are rather concerned about the impact it will have on
the Holland Park Roundabout, which already struggles to function in the
evenings. All we can hope is that the parking charges are sufficient to
encourage the use of public transport whereever possible - but I'm not
convinced that they will.

Given what has happened with the Metrocentre up in the North East I
think you can expect lots of pressure for road development in the coming
years. The Metrocentre is also huge and while it has some very frequent
bus services and a regional rail service the level of car usage has
increased hugely. There has been a programme of road improvements to
prevent the A1 / A69 grinding to a halt. I can see exactly the same
happening with the A40 and the North South route although the real
question is what will get knocked down to make the space. From memory
there isn't much scope for demolition to widen roads or restructure
junctions.

While I can see why people would be attracted to White City there will
be huge transport issues associated with the development that a couple
of new bus stations, a tube station and a railway station will not
solve. People will go by car and that will clog up a significant part of
West London - next target for a congestion charge zone extension
anybody? It will be interesting to see how TfL plan their changes to
bus services compared to the market based approach for the Metrocentre
and to a lesser extent Lakeside and Bluewater.

I doubt the CCZ will be expanded any further in its current guise - and
I really don't see TfL agreeing to any further expansion of the A40 or
the West Cross Route beyond the current limited works at Acton Bridge.

As I see it, there are only two remaining options to prevent serious
congestion in the area. The "cheap" option would be to restrict the
parking at the centre in some way - probably by imposing minimum
charges. I doubt that either TfL or LBHF will be allowed to do this
(although the site is on a freehold from LUL - does that give them any
leverage?). Minimum parking charges would also have a knock-on effect on
local CPZs which would need their hours extended.

The other option is "proper" variable road user charging, the successor
of area congestion charging. Priced correctly, that should remove any
pressure for road capacity expansion and keep traffic manageable -
whilst making public transport options more attractive.

I'll also be very interested to see what bus changes are planned. So far
I've heard very little on any bus improvements in the area except those
associated with the CC extension. West London Tram could help, but we'll
see what happens with that. The current penetration of buses to the
southwest and to the north isn't very good, and many existing routes are
already very heavily used (obviously the 207/607, but also the 94 which
is crowded in the peaks despite a 2-3 minute headway, and the 72 and 283
which are single decker because they have to use Hammersmith Bridge, but
seem much too busy for their size north of Hammersmith).

(Maybe I should aim for a placement in whichever bit of Buses is
involved with this!)

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:

I also noticed that Westfield appear to be contributing to a (needed)
overhaul of Shepherd's Bush Green. Unfortunately, the Green gets
strangled by traffic, and any visual and environmental improvements
will be somewhat deadened by queues of cars.

The southern edge of the site should have been used for a new 2 way road,
and the existing road from Holland Park Roundabout to the green should have
been made bus-and-taxi-only in both directions.

Dave Arquati wrote:

I went to that too! I was also surprised by the scale of the site - I
can now understand why they mentioned holding live events like concerts
in the winter garden area in the centre of the complex.

Having worked at the large site which is now just a small fraction of
the development - yes, it is huge.

I doubt the CCZ will be expanded any further in its current guise - and
I really don't see TfL agreeing to any further expansion of the A40 or
the West Cross Route beyond the current limited works at Acton Bridge.

It would be ironic if West Cross Route were to be extended since it was
Ken himself, in his first stint as London dictator, who stopped it in
its tracks.
--
Thoss

Dave Arquati wrote:

I really don't see TfL agreeing to any further expansion of the
A40 or the West Cross Route beyond the current limited works at Acton
Bridge.

Where's Acton Bridge?

John Rowland wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

I really don't see TfL agreeing to any further expansion of the
A40 or the West Cross Route beyond the current limited works at
Acton Bridge.

Where's Acton Bridge?

http://www.a40actonbridges.info/index.php
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Richard J. wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

I really don't see TfL agreeing to any further expansion of the
A40 or the West Cross Route beyond the current limited works at
Acton Bridge.

Where's Acton Bridge?

http://www.a40actonbridges.info/index.php

Thanks.

"New bridges that will secure the structural safety for the next 120 years.
The new section of road will carry two lanes of traffic in each direction,
as well as providing new cycle paths on both sides." Since the entire rest
of the A40 from Royal Oak to the M40 is three+three (except where it passes
through certain junctions), they are planning a 120-year bottleneck.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 18:01:10 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:

Richard J. wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

I really don't see TfL agreeing to any further expansion of the
A40 or the West Cross Route beyond the current limited works at
Acton Bridge.

Where's Acton Bridge?

http://www.a40actonbridges.info/index.php

Thanks.

"New bridges that will secure the structural safety for the next 120 years.
The new section of road will carry two lanes of traffic in each direction,
as well as providing new cycle paths on both sides." Since the entire rest
of the A40 from Royal Oak to the M40 is three+three (except where it passes
through certain junctions), they are planning a 120-year bottleneck.


Interesting site, hadn't seen that before.

But I too had assumed (when driving through the road works at the site
now) that it was both a replacement and widening project. I thought
that was what they bought all those houses up and demolished the
cinema for a few years ago, so they could widen the whole lot to three
lanes! Seems madness to leave it at only two lanes.

I think it goes back to two lanes for a short time under the Hangar
Lane junction, so maybe they think making Acton Bridges three lanes
would just shift the blockage to Hangar Lane?

Peter Frimberley wrote:

http://www.a40actonbridges.info/index.php


But I too had assumed (when driving through the road works at the site
now) that it was both a replacement and widening project. I thought
that was what they bought all those houses up and demolished the
cinema for a few years ago, so they could widen the whole lot to three
lanes! Seems madness to leave it at only two lanes.

The houses were bought and demolished when grade separated junctions were
planned for Gypsy Corner and Western Circus aka Savoy Circus.