I generally think this is a good idea and long overdue. But you do
have to wonder about some people's ability to grasp the system, though.
Accompanying the Evening Standard article about this change was an
interview with a woman from Lewisham, let's call her Carol Stupid.
Carol apparently told the Standard, "I travel from Lewisham to Charing
Cross on the train each day, and then buy a one day travelcard to
complete my journey on the tube from there. I would love to use Oyster
but there's nowhere in Lewisham to buy one."

I know the Standard is not the most reliable organ out there, but
surely no one can be this wilfully stupid and the Standard just made
her up because they themselves were too lazy to think of a proper
example? Or are people really this thick? And, in any case, surely
they sell Oyster cards at the DLR ticket windows at Lewisham?

Patrick

On 24 Oct 2006 01:05:44 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift people on to
orbital services and the existence of a premium charge to travel via the
centre!

Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are already as
crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.
Definitely. I've been to a TfL presentation about it! I would have
thought that Paul C has had a lot more bumph about it too.


The TfL desire is to provide more significantly more capacity than at
present on orbital services. Whether enough extra capacity is on the
drawing board is a moot point!

They're only adding 2 extra 3-car trains per hour on the WLL (and just
1 per hour in the morning peak, presumably), and 4 extra 3-car trains
per hour on (most of) the NLL.

Even if these are filled entirely by passengers abstracted from radial
routes, surely the effect on those routes would be minor.

wrote:

I generally think this is a good idea and long overdue. But you do
have to wonder about some people's ability to grasp the system, though.
Accompanying the Evening Standard article about this change was an
interview with a woman from Lewisham, let's call her Carol Stupid.
Carol apparently told the Standard, "I travel from Lewisham to Charing
Cross on the train each day, and then buy a one day travelcard to
complete my journey on the tube from there. I would love to use Oyster
but there's nowhere in Lewisham to buy one."

I know the Standard is not the most reliable organ out there, but
surely no one can be this wilfully stupid and the Standard just made
her up because they themselves were too lazy to think of a proper
example? Or are people really this thick?

I believe you could see even more strange ideas about ticket buying than
this example, all over the world.

And, in any case, surely
they sell Oyster cards at the DLR ticket windows at Lewisham?

Afraid not, at least the last time I visited (easter or something). The
ticket offices at Lewisham and Greenwich stations are managed by
Southeastern and at least at that time they did not sell Oyster cards.
Most DLR stations have no ticket offices, only ticket machines.

But anyway they should be able to sell here a printed one day travelcard
Z1-2 the same price as she now buy it at Charing Cross underground
station. Anyway again, why can't she realise that she could buy an
Oyster card at Charing Cross underground station instead of buying a
ODTC there? Or something...

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

asdf wrote:
On 24 Oct 2006 01:05:44 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift people on to
orbital services and the existence of a premium charge to travel via the
centre!
Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are already as
crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.
Definitely. I've been to a TfL presentation about it! I would have
thought that Paul C has had a lot more bumph about it too.

The TfL desire is to provide more significantly more capacity than at
present on orbital services. Whether enough extra capacity is on the
drawing board is a moot point!

They're only adding 2 extra 3-car trains per hour on the WLL (and just
1 per hour in the morning peak, presumably), and 4 extra 3-car trains
per hour on (most of) the NLL.

Even if these are filled entirely by passengers abstracted from radial
routes, surely the effect on those routes would be minor.

Those trains will probably be lengthened in the future, and ELL services
will be more frequent.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 08:11:01 +0100, Paul G wrote:

One of the major selling points of the ELL and NLL upgrades are that
they will reduce the amount of passengers travelling through Zone 1; if
passengers are unable to save money taking circuitous routes, will the
hypothetically more spacious journey be enough?

I've been thinking about this a bit more. ISTM there are two types of
journey via Z1 which the orbital routes could hope to abstract:
journeys which are basically orbital (but where currently the
quickest/most reliable route is via Z1), and cross-London journeys.

For the former type, I'm thinking of journeys like Stonebridge Park to
Walthamstow. At the moment, if I had to make this journey every day, I
expect I'd find the quickest and most reliable route to be via Euston
and the Victoria Line. But if a reliable 4tph through service were
introduced from Willesden Junction onto the GOBLin, as is planned,
then that would become the preferred route. Fare incentives would not
be needed.

The effect could be maximised by adding and improving interchanges
between radial and orbital routes (Tufnell Park etc), and by stopping
semi-fast trains that currently don't stop (e.g. Silverlink County at
Willesden Junction, Met/Thameslink/Chiltern at West Hampstead).

The other type of journey (cross-London) would be journeys like Fulham
Broadway to Stratford. A fare incentive would be the only way to get
people to avoid Z1, as it would take significantly longer.

Olof Lagerkvist wrote:

wrote:

I generally think this is a good idea and long overdue. But you do
have to wonder about some people's ability to grasp the system, though.
Accompanying the Evening Standard article about this change was an
interview with a woman from Lewisham, let's call her Carol Stupid.
Carol apparently told the Standard, "I travel from Lewisham to Charing
Cross on the train each day, and then buy a one day travelcard to
complete my journey on the tube from there. I would love to use Oyster
but there's nowhere in Lewisham to buy one."

I know the Standard is not the most reliable organ out there, but
surely no one can be this wilfully stupid and the Standard just made
her up because they themselves were too lazy to think of a proper
example? Or are people really this thick?

I believe you could see even more strange ideas about ticket buying than
this example, all over the world.

I remember a vox pop on London local news around the time of a fares
rise where some stupid woman was complaining about the cost of a bus
fare. When the interviewer actually challenged her by saying that bus
fares were cheaper on Oyster she just said "ooh, Oyster, that's not for
the likes of us" (almost an exact quote)! I thought if "the likes of
you" want to pour money down the drain then go ahead! It is possible I
guess that she thought it was only possible to get season tickets on
Oyster, though to be honest her whole demeanour shouted out that she
simply wasn't prepared to engage with this "new fangled technology".

However if she was ever to grasp the Oyster PAYG system to pay her bus
fare I doubt she'd ever have the willingness or ability to grasp the
issues surrounding PAYG and National Rail, which - to be fair (or
should that be fare!) - manages to confuse a great many who have a
three digit IQ too.


And, in any case, surely
they sell Oyster cards at the DLR ticket windows at Lewisham?

Afraid not, at least the last time I visited (easter or something). The
ticket offices at Lewisham and Greenwich stations are managed by
Southeastern and at least at that time they did not sell Oyster cards.
Most DLR stations have no ticket offices, only ticket machines.

You're quite correct in saying that - the ticket offices at both
Lewisham and Greenwich do not issue Oyster cards nor do they top-up
Oyster PAYG credit or issue season Travelcards on Oyster. At Lewisham
however there is a single touchscreen TfL 'Quick Ticket' machine which
can top-up PAYG credit and load season tickets onto pre-existing Oyster
cards using debit & credit cards only - no cash (this is the same
machine that's seen at Underground stations).

TfL seems to think this Quick Ticket machine qualifies Lewisham to be
on the list of National Rail stations that "issue and top up Oyster
cards" (full list on the TfL website [1]). This is misleading - the
only thing that deals with Oyster at Lewisham is the Quick Ticket
machine.

Also to elaborate on Olof's answer re the DLR and ticket offices - the
DLR don't do ticket offices apart from the information booth at Canary
Wharf where I believe tickets can be bought and Oyster issued and
topped-up.

The ticket offices on the DLR network where there is direct interchange
with Underground lines, and these ticket offices are run by LU (Bank,
Stratford, West Ham and Canning Town).


But anyway they should be able to sell here a printed one day travelcard
Z1-2 the same price as she now buy it at Charing Cross underground
station. Anyway again, why can't she realise that she could buy an
Oyster card at Charing Cross underground station instead of buying a
ODTC there? Or something...

All the above is true - Lewisham would sell her a peak or off-peak Day
Travelcard, and she could get an Oyster card from Charing Cross or any
other LU ticket office or indeed one of the 2,200 newsagents that
issues and tops-up Oyster.

If she travels regularly, like four or more weekdays every week, then a
weekly or longer season Travelcard would be worth it. But let's say she
travels less regularly that four days a week, and departs Lewisham
before 0930 but arrives at CX after 0930, under that scenario perhaps
she isn't aware of the existence of the peak Day Travelcard (zones 1&2
would be £6.20) - which would still be cheaper than buying a Lewisham
to CX single (£2.30) and then buying an off-peak Day Travelcard (zones
1&2 at £4.90) (£2.30 + £4.90 = £7.20).

So her actions don't make much sense. Even if she doesn't exist and is
a creation of a journalist they are still people out there who are
similarly ignorant.

-----
[1] TfL - 'Where to buy tickets' (scroll down for the National Rail
station list)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2006/where.asp

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

On 24 Oct 2006 01:05:44 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Goodness knows how charging is going to work with the push to
shift people on to orbital services and the existence of a premium
charge to travel via the centre!

Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are
already as crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.

Definitely. I've been to a TfL presentation about it! I would
have thought that Paul C has had a lot more bumph about it too.

The TfL desire is to provide more significantly more capacity than
at present on orbital services. Whether enough extra capacity is on
the drawing board is a moot point!

They're only adding 2 extra 3-car trains per hour on the WLL (and
just 1 per hour in the morning peak, presumably), and 4 extra 3-car
trains per hour on (most of) the NLL.

Even if these are filled entirely by passengers abstracted from
radial routes, surely the effect on those routes would be minor.

Ken will have to fight the rail freight industry for even that many
paths on the NLL. 3-coach trains on such a busy route is frankly a joke.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Dave Arquati wrote:

asdf wrote:
On 24 Oct 2006 01:05:44 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift people on to
orbital services and the existence of a premium charge to travel via the
centre!
Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are already as
crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.
Definitely. I've been to a TfL presentation about it! I would have
thought that Paul C has had a lot more bumph about it too.

The TfL desire is to provide more significantly more capacity than at
present on orbital services. Whether enough extra capacity is on the
drawing board is a moot point!

They're only adding 2 extra 3-car trains per hour on the WLL (and just
1 per hour in the morning peak, presumably), and 4 extra 3-car trains
per hour on (most of) the NLL.

Even if these are filled entirely by passengers abstracted from radial
routes, surely the effect on those routes would be minor.

Those trains will probably be lengthened in the future, and ELL services
will be more frequent.

--
Dave Arquati


What talk has there been regarding the lengthening of NLL trains? The
NLL can be pretty crammed at peak times, which will only be alleviated
somewhat by the new trains offer better utilisation of carriage space.
If the NLL is going to become a more and more important orbital route
then more capacity in the form of longer trains will be needed sooner
or later.

That said from memory many of the NLL stations aren't going to handle
much longer trains without platform extensions - perhaps they'll manage
to accommodate a four-car train in now, but anything longer and
platforms could need to be lengthened at many stations.

I guess TfL might well want to get their feet under the table and take
control of the North London Railway before they start pestering central
government (i.e. the DfT) for more money for extra trains/ extra
carriages. My impression is that TfL/ the Mayor is fairly astute in
knowing how to get the best deal out of the government by pressing the
right buttons at the right times, and perhaps it's not quite the right
time to deal with this one yet.

In article .com,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Dave Arquati wrote:

asdf wrote:
On 24 Oct 2006 01:05:44 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift
people on to orbital services and the existence of a premium
charge to travel via the centre!
Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are
already as crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.
Definitely. I've been to a TfL presentation about it! I would
have thought that Paul C has had a lot more bumph about it too.

The TfL desire is to provide more significantly more capacity
than at present on orbital services. Whether enough extra
capacity is on the drawing board is a moot point!

They're only adding 2 extra 3-car trains per hour on the WLL
(and just 1 per hour in the morning peak, presumably), and 4 extra
3-car trains per hour on (most of) the NLL.

Even if these are filled entirely by passengers abstracted from
radial routes, surely the effect on those routes would be minor.

Those trains will probably be lengthened in the future, and ELL
services will be more frequent.

What talk has there been regarding the lengthening of NLL trains?
The NLL can be pretty crammed at peak times, which will only be
alleviated somewhat by the new trains offer better utilisation of
carriage space. If the NLL is going to become a more and more
important orbital route then more capacity in the form of longer
trains will be needed sooner or later.

That said from memory many of the NLL stations aren't going to
handle much longer trains without platform extensions - perhaps they'll
manage to accommodate a four-car train in now, but anything longer and
platforms could need to be lengthened at many stations.

I guess TfL might well want to get their feet under the table and
take control of the North London Railway before they start pestering
central government (i.e. the DfT) for more money for extra trains/ extra
carriages. My impression is that TfL/ the Mayor is fairly astute in
knowing how to get the best deal out of the government by pressing
the right buttons at the right times, and perhaps it's not quite the
right time to deal with this one yet.

I thought TfL had covered themselves with options for longer, 4 coach,
trains in the recent ELL & NLL stock order.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Mizter T wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:

asdf wrote:
On 24 Oct 2006 01:05:44 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Goodness
knows how charging is going to work with the push to shift people on to
orbital services and the existence of a premium charge to travel via the
centre!
Is there really such a push? As it is, the NLL and WLL are already as
crowded in the peaks as anything that goes into Z1.
Definitely. I've been to a TfL presentation about it! I would have
thought that Paul C has had a lot more bumph about it too.

The TfL desire is to provide more significantly more capacity than at
present on orbital services. Whether enough extra capacity is on the
drawing board is a moot point!
They're only adding 2 extra 3-car trains per hour on the WLL (and just
1 per hour in the morning peak, presumably), and 4 extra 3-car trains
per hour on (most of) the NLL.

Even if these are filled entirely by passengers abstracted from radial
routes, surely the effect on those routes would be minor.
Those trains will probably be lengthened in the future, and ELL services
will be more frequent.

--
Dave Arquati


What talk has there been regarding the lengthening of NLL trains? The
NLL can be pretty crammed at peak times, which will only be alleviated
somewhat by the new trains offer better utilisation of carriage space.
If the NLL is going to become a more and more important orbital route
then more capacity in the form of longer trains will be needed sooner
or later.

That said from memory many of the NLL stations aren't going to handle
much longer trains without platform extensions - perhaps they'll manage
to accommodate a four-car train in now, but anything longer and
platforms could need to be lengthened at many stations.

I think the talk of train lengthening (and therefore platform
lengthening) was long-term stuff, so don't expect it any time soon.

I guess TfL might well want to get their feet under the table and take
control of the North London Railway before they start pestering central
government (i.e. the DfT) for more money for extra trains/ extra
carriages. My impression is that TfL/ the Mayor is fairly astute in
knowing how to get the best deal out of the government by pressing the
right buttons at the right times, and perhaps it's not quite the right
time to deal with this one yet.

I'd agree with you on TfL wanting to get their foot in the door first on
the NLR. I think politically, the NLR is much more important than some
people realise - a *lot* of work is being done to ensure that there will
be a noticeable difference from the first day TfL take over - even
extending *outside* the stations to TfL-funded improvements to local
streets. A positive reaction from the public and the media on TfL's
takeover will strengthen the Mayor's position on direction of other
suburban rail services, and the Mayor would certainly use this reaction
to pressure the government for more money.

TfL is trying to cement the notion that it is able to deliver (by such
things as getting a good credit rating, making robust budgets,
delivering congestion charging and showing good value-for-money on for
bus improvements) which it is adding to the Mayor-led argument for
stronger investment in London. The essence of it is "London will
generate £X return if you give us £x - and we are able to deliver that
return."

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London