MIG wrote:

The extension ticket in the paper travelcard case is £4, generally
more than PAYG for the whole journey. So, in fact, you have to get out
of the train, go to the exit, touch in, go back and wait for another
train.

The main problem with the combination of paper tickets and Oyster in
London is in my opinion the decision to have the card readers on
gates/platforms but not on the trains, so there is no way to touch
in/touch out without leaving the trains which leads to this problem.
There are also specific rules at some places which often leads to
confusion, it is not in all cases clear simple-to-understand logic
behind the "touching" people are supposed to do at interchanges such as
Winbledon NR/tube/tram or between tube/DLR at Bank.

There is a similar smart card system being introduced in western Sweden
where I live and one of the big differences I have noticed is that here
the card readers are always on the vehicle (on the bus, tram, train,
boat etc). We only have season tickets on smart cards right now here but
it is said that within a few months pre-pay value will be introduced too
and that it will always require touch-in when boarding any public
transport vehicle and touch-out when leaving it, no matter if it happens
to be a bus, train or something else. There will be no special rules of
validating on special card readers on platforms when changing trains or
interchanging between train/tram or something like that. It is always
the same rules, touch-in and touch-out on the vehicle you are using.
That said, I still think that the London model is better in many ways,
especially I find it quite reasonable to not require touch-out on buses
(it will be very interesting to see if that rule will really work here).

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:38:20 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote:

There is a similar smart card system being introduced in western Sweden
where I live and one of the big differences I have noticed is that here
the card readers are always on the vehicle (on the bus, tram, train,
boat etc). We only have season tickets on smart cards right now here but
it is said that within a few months pre-pay value will be introduced too
and that it will always require touch-in when boarding any public
transport vehicle and touch-out when leaving it, no matter if it happens
to be a bus, train or something else. There will be no special rules of
validating on special card readers on platforms when changing trains or
interchanging between train/tram or something like that. It is always
the same rules, touch-in and touch-out on the vehicle you are using.
That said, I still think that the London model is better in many ways,
especially I find it quite reasonable to not require touch-out on buses
(it will be very interesting to see if that rule will really work here).

I obviously don't know the precise details of the Swedish scheme but I'd
guess you do not have the immense complexity and long standing rules
that London's cash fare system has. Establishing a pre-pay system
alongside such complexity is immensely difficult and will always result
in anomalies which then result in complaints and confusion.

The only place in the world that has regular smart card validation on
exit from buses is Singapore [1]. I have just been catching up with how
their system works and it seems rather clever. You validate on entry
where a maximum fare is deducted. The on vehicle validators are only
enabled for a short time prior to arrival (within 100 metres) at a stop
and 20 seconds after departure. The validator by the driver can work in
entry and exit mode - to deal with those people who may need to exit via
the front door but exit mode is only set for a very short time before it
reverts to entry only. There are dire warnings about double deduction of
fares if you exit via the front if the validator has gone into entry
only mode. Most "end of trip" validation is expected via the exit
validators which calculate your fare and then add back any value due for
the journey undertaken. Now I accept Singapore is a far more
controlled society than the UK will ever be but it seems that they have
achieved on buses what TfL is trying to provide on its rail network and
is using exactly the same model.

I agree with you that it will be very interesting indeed if the Swedish
scheme can get high levels of exit validation on buses (or any other
vehicle for that matter). I'd certainly love to know what the fare based
incentives are to ensure that people validate (assuming, of course, that
they opt to have them).

[1] there is a very limited scheme within the HK Octopus scheme for
buses that travel from central HK to Stanley (Citybus route 6 group)
where there are intermediate fares rather than a taper as you approach
the destination. IIRC max fare is deducted on entry and an add back is
made for those people who alight at intermediate points.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

I obviously don't know the precise details of the Swedish scheme but I'd
guess you do not have the immense complexity and long standing rules
that London's cash fare system has. Establishing a pre-pay system
alongside such complexity is immensely difficult and will always result
in anomalies which then result in complaints and confusion.

You have a point here, even if we have some complex combination of fare
schemes here too. Especially the train operating companies often
distance-based fares in combination with each county's own zonal fares
leads to a situation where it may be cheaper to buy a ticket for a
little longer journey than you actually are going to take, just to cross
a county boundary and get another fare scheme for your ticket...

The only place in the world that has regular smart card validation on
exit from buses is Singapore [1]. I have just been catching up with how
their system works and it seems rather clever. You validate on entry
where a maximum fare is deducted. The on vehicle validators are only
enabled for a short time prior to arrival (within 100 metres) at a stop
and 20 seconds after departure. The validator by the driver can work in
entry and exit mode - to deal with those people who may need to exit via
the front door but exit mode is only set for a very short time before it
reverts to entry only. There are dire warnings about double deduction of
fares if you exit via the front if the validator has gone into entry
only mode. Most "end of trip" validation is expected via the exit
validators which calculate your fare and then add back any value due for
the journey undertaken. Now I accept Singapore is a far more
controlled society than the UK will ever be but it seems that they have
achieved on buses what TfL is trying to provide on its rail network and
is using exactly the same model.

Very interesting to read, thanks very much for this information about
Hongkong.

I agree with you that it will be very interesting indeed if the Swedish
scheme can get high levels of exit validation on buses (or any other
vehicle for that matter). I'd certainly love to know what the fare based
incentives are to ensure that people validate (assuming, of course, that
they opt to have them).

Unless we touch out we will have to pay the maximum fare possible with
that vehicle so there will be a very strong incentive, especially on
long journeys, but many people here critisize the new system because
there is a great risk that people forget to touch out and pay much more
than they should have done.

It will work in such way that when we touch in when entering a vehicle
the validator will deduct the maximum fare possible with that vehicle
(from this stop to the terminus). We won't need to have all that money
on the card, the balance can be negative, but it will not be possible to
start a new journey with a card with a negative balance. To allow
negative balances without the risk for the county to lose money we will
have to pay a refundable deposit when buying the card. So long very much
like Oyster, also that no money will be deducted on entry if we touch in
within an area for which we have a valid season ticket on the card.

But there are also differences, all validators will be entry/exit
bidirectional. The first touch will be entry and the second touch will
be exit. On trains where pre-pay cards are not valid but season tickets
are, the ticket inspectors will not have card readers so we will have to
keep a receipt from the time we bought the card showing that it contains
a valid ticket if we travel on such trains and this actually complicates
things rather than simplifies compared to paper tickets. Also, for
pre-pay cards, the deposit will be 100 SEK (~ £7.40) which is... a quite
high deposit. Another odd thing, the pre-pay fare will be distance-based
outside three concentric zones around City of Gothenburg and outside
local town centres, while cash single tickets and day-cards will still
be zonal all over this county as they have been for many years.

I think I will still recommend visitors to buy some kind of day-card and
explain where they are valid instead of trying to explain how pre-pay
cards work...

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
But there are also differences, all validators will be entry/exit
bidirectional. The first touch will be entry and the second touch will
be exit.

I see... like the DLR, then. And not like Croydon trams (note to self).

On trains where pre-pay cards are not valid but season tickets
are, the ticket inspectors will not have card readers so we will have to
keep a receipt from the time we bought the card showing that it contains
a valid ticket if we travel on such trains and this actually complicates
things rather than simplifies compared to paper tickets.

I agree, at least we didn't do that here! As you know, we have the same
situation here with most trains, but I don't think people were ever
required to keep the receipt with them, although I think it would have
helped resolve a few misunderstandings in the first few months. In
Lisbon I think people were required to keep the receipt until all modes
had adopted the new technology (I'm thinking back to 2004) so I suppose
it's a common requirement of a new system. Will they ever get card
readers in Sweden?

I wonder whether any discussions took place within TfL about whether
trams should have the validators on board, as they "feel" to me more
like a bus? My expectations, from various trips around the continent,
are - looks like a bus stop: validate on board, looks like a station:
validate on the way in and probably on the way out if there's anything
in the way. Doesn't always work, though!

I don't have a problem with whatever charging mechanism TfL come up
with, as long as it is easy to comply with it, or to put it another way,
we'd have to go out of our way to get charged the £4. Er, sorry.
Anyway, for anyone that uses the underground and/or bus exclusively, I
can see that it would become second nature. Being a bit of an awkward
individual (or train user, as we are known in London), I always seem to
come across the special cases that you've already mentioned - Bank,
Wimbledon, and Ealing Broadway, that have even a confirmed former
trainspotter like me confused about which readers are in, which out,
which both and what to do where. Apart from paying three times for a
tram once (partly due to poorly designed error messages), I haven't been
burned much but we'll see what happens in the new regime. As I've said
before, I think a lot of this will be resolved with proper Oyster
acceptance on the railways. Then I can start complaining about my other
wishes, such as free (or cheap) transfers on the buses...

Richard.

MIG wrote:
If you fail to touch in, and touch out outside of your zones, you'll
pay £1 or £1.50 (the higher amount if its zone 1 you touch out).



Surely that's £4?

No, if you have a valid season ticket, you pay £1 for incomplete
journeys outside zone 1, or £1.50 within zone 1, that are not covered
by your season ticket. This is ecxactly the same as for everyone right
now.

£4 is the penalty for people using ONLY pre-pay, with NO season ticket.

Richard wrote:

Olof Lagerkvist wrote:

On trains where pre-pay cards are not valid but season tickets
are, the ticket inspectors will not have card readers so we will have
to keep a receipt from the time we bought the card showing that it
contains a valid ticket if we travel on such trains and this actually
complicates things rather than simplifies compared to paper tickets.


I agree, at least we didn't do that here! As you know, we have the same
situation here with most trains, but I don't think people were ever
required to keep the receipt with them, although I think it would have
helped resolve a few misunderstandings in the first few months. In
Lisbon I think people were required to keep the receipt until all modes
had adopted the new technology (I'm thinking back to 2004) so I suppose
it's a common requirement of a new system. Will they ever get card
readers in Sweden?

It is not clear wether or not, it seems to be a constant arguing between
county councils and train operators about who should pay for them in
that case, so my guess is that at least it will take a year or two until
we can throw away the receipts.

Another problem is that there is a great risk that different parts of
Sweden will get incompatible smart cards with different standards so
that inter-city route trains will have to have card readers for more
than one system. At least it seems that Stockholm will get another card
standard than we in western Sweden have got but otoh we have the same
standard as being introduced in Copenhagen. I have also heard that in a
few years it will be possible to use pre-pay cards from western Sweden
and from Copenhagen in each other's areas when visiting the other
region. That adds one more thing to solve, currency exchange rates and
rules for public transport authorities to pay each other, but I think it
will be a very good and useful thing if it is introduced.

....and for me personally it would actually be useful to be able to
touch-in on a bus to the Gothenburg airport, touch-out, catch a flight
arrive at Heathrow and touch-in at the tube gates, all "touches" with
the same card. :-)

I wonder whether any discussions took place within TfL about whether
trams should have the validators on board, as they "feel" to me more
like a bus? My expectations, from various trips around the continent,
are - looks like a bus stop: validate on board, looks like a station:
validate on the way in and probably on the way out if there's anything
in the way. Doesn't always work, though!

Yes... Especially since there are some stops shared between buses and
Tramlink, you touch your card on the tram stop validator, wait for a
tram, but a bus turns up before the tram and you decide to take the bus
instead... Now, if you board the bus without validating again on the bus
you will actually pay the correct fare, but how do you explain that to
the driver or an inspector?

I don't have a problem with whatever charging mechanism TfL come up
with, as long as it is easy to comply with it, or to put it another way,
we'd have to go out of our way to get charged the £4. Er, sorry.
Anyway, for anyone that uses the underground and/or bus exclusively, I
can see that it would become second nature. Being a bit of an awkward
individual (or train user, as we are known in London), I always seem to
come across the special cases that you've already mentioned - Bank,
Wimbledon, and Ealing Broadway, that have even a confirmed former
trainspotter like me confused about which readers are in, which out,
which both and what to do where. Apart from paying three times for a
tram once (partly due to poorly designed error messages), I haven't been
burned much but we'll see what happens in the new regime. As I've said
before, I think a lot of this will be resolved with proper Oyster
acceptance on the railways.

This is in my opinion the worst thing in the London case, that TfL has
so many different rules for validating. To require touch-out at DLR but
not at Tramlink when both have quite similar looking validators on the
stops is in my opinion to make the validation rules unnecessary
complicated. DLR has, except for Bank and Tower Gw, practically a almost
tram-like flat-fare, £1.50 cash and £1.00 with Oyster but is technically
treated like a tube fare but could have been treated like tram service
in the fare scheme too.

Then I can start complaining about my other
wishes, such as free (or cheap) transfers on the buses...

I find it strange that they did not introduce transfer fare on Oyster.
While certainly more complicated logics are already solved in the Oyster
software a simple thing as special transfer fare for buses is not
included. Buses are only cheap in London if you can make the complete
journey with only one bus. In most other cases buses are more expensive
than most other places in Europe.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Richard wrote:

I agree, at least we didn't do that here! As you know, we have the same
situation here with most trains, but I don't think people were ever
required to keep the receipt with them

Not on Oyster, but MK Metro, a (now Arriva-owned) bus company in Milton
Keynes who issue season tickets on quite an old contact smartcard
system, do request that receipts are carried in case of a failed card,
or in case the ticket is used on a tendered service operated by a
company with no card readers.

Neil

Richard wrote:

Being a bit of an awkward individual (or train user, as we are known in
London), I always seem to come across the special cases that you've
already mentioned - Bank, Wimbledon, and Ealing Broadway, that have even a
confirmed former trainspotter like me confused about which readers are in,
which out, which both and what to do where.

Yesterday in Croydon I noticed the readers had a bizarre message which
seemed to boil down to: "All PAYG users must touch in here. All Oyster users
going to Wimbledon must touch in here." What's the reasoning behind this
distinction? Surely the exit barriers at Wimbledon will just read the
travelcard and assume entry at an ungated point?

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:46:47 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Yesterday in Croydon I noticed the readers had a bizarre message which
seemed to boil down to: "All PAYG users must touch in here. All Oyster users
going to Wimbledon must touch in here." What's the reasoning behind this
distinction? Surely the exit barriers at Wimbledon will just read the
travelcard and assume entry at an ungated point?

Not if you only have a bus pass, or a Travelcard that doesn't include
Z3.

Olof Lagerkvist wrote
[...]
While certainly more complicated logics are already solved in the
Oyster
software a simple thing as special transfer fare for buses is not
included. Buses are only cheap in London if you can make the complete

journey with only one bus. In most other cases buses are more
expensive
than most other places in Europe.

But Oyster capping means that the bus cost, "more expensive" or not
will never be more than a total of £3 per day. The fourth or fifth and
all subsequent buses will be free.

--
Mike D