On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:45:14 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:34:36 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new
rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest
passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to
touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with
the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance
where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when
transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2
travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

Hmmm - interesting. This is obviously to deal with the situation that
people may opt to travel via Zone 1 for journeys that may be priced on a
Z23 basis from some locations in North or East London (as per our
Tottenham Hale - Stratford mini thread).

Eh? If they have a Z12 Travelcard and make a Z3 (or Z23) journey, the
fare is the same as the Z123 fare. So touching at Bank would make no
difference to the fare charged. If anything, it's those who are using
PAYG only (i.e. who don't have Travelcards) that would need to touch
the reader.

OK fair enough. I think the official answer is somewhat daft if you have
a travelcard that is valid in Zones 12. As the card is valid there
anyway the addition of an entry transaction can't serve any real
purpose.

As you say for PAYG only it clear does serve a purpose as it highlights
travel via zone 1 rather than via a non Z1 route. Here fares quite
clearly differ so there is a reason to ensure validation.

Regardless of the journey made, I can't see any possible circumstances
under which the system would not be able to calculate the correct fare
for holders of Z12 Travelcards travelling outside their zones via Bank
without them touching the validator there, but would be able to do so
for PAYG-only users, or for holders of Z1, Z123, etc Travelcards who
are going outside their zones.

There is something nagging away in the back of my mind about this. I
take your point but there must be something odd about fare arrangements
somewhere which means there is a reason for this being required for some
travelcard holders who are extending via PAYG. The only thing I can
think of is the fact that Bank is an OSI and the arrangements for the
Waterloo and City line gating might create an odd situation requiring an
additional "in" validation for DLR journeys. It needs more thought.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
Why it is chosing the first example when you validate at Bank and the
second example if you are not is however not a fully clear logic to the
passenger interchanging at Bank and wondering whether or not to validate
there.

We've established, haven't we, that fares between two points are
defined, so Oyster should use that to determine the appropriate fare.
We have these special rules for Bank and Wimbledon (and others - these
are the two that I'm familiar with). Surely it would be easier all
round to remove the special rules that apply at these stations?

If the Bank validator is needed for people using the lift from the
surface, move the validator to the lift's upper entrance. At Wimbledon,
why have validators on the tram or District platforms? (There are
already barriers at both entrances to the station.) You even have to
remember which validators *not* to touch!

Simple rules are easier to follow and are more likely to be followed
aren't they? For me, these sort of things take the edge off this
fantastic system that we have.

Richard.

Wimbledon nonsense:
http://transportforlondon.custhelp.c...ted=1092149936
Bank nonsense:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/tickets/oyster_faqs.shtml#9

Richard wrote:

Olof Lagerkvist wrote:

Why it is chosing the first example when you validate at Bank and the
second example if you are not is however not a fully clear logic to
the passenger interchanging at Bank and wondering whether or not to
validate there.


We've established, haven't we, that fares between two points are
defined, so Oyster should use that to determine the appropriate fare. We
have these special rules for Bank and Wimbledon (and others - these are
the two that I'm familiar with). Surely it would be easier all round to
remove the special rules that apply at these stations?

Certainly. I think the DLR validators should be changed, either so that
they only require touch-in and not touch-out (follow the same rules as
Tramlink), or that all DLR validators should be duplicated to entry-only
and exit-only validators. If they did one of this, allmost all confusion
at Bank, Stratford etc would be eliminated.

If the Bank validator is needed for people using the lift from the
surface, move the validator to the lift's upper entrance. At Wimbledon,
why have validators on the tram or District platforms? (There are
already barriers at both entrances to the station.) You even have to
remember which validators *not* to touch!

Winbledon is an interesting example. Surely, if yuo validate on a
validator at a tram-stop somewhere, travel to Wimbledon, change to
District Line and then later touch-out at a tube station gateline, why
would it not be possible for the Oyster software to calculate one tram
journey and one tube journey automatically? I cannot se why you have to
validate at Wimbledon in that case.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:43 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote:

Winbledon is an interesting example. Surely, if yuo validate on a
validator at a tram-stop somewhere, travel to Wimbledon, change to
District Line and then later touch-out at a tube station gateline, why
would it not be possible for the Oyster software to calculate one tram
journey and one tube journey automatically? I cannot se why you have to
validate at Wimbledon in that case.

Because there is no need to validate on exit from the tram - it's all
done before you board just like a bus. Therefore the card is ready for
the next journey. If you only validated on exit from LU you would be
charged £4 on PAYG as there would be no entry transaction at Wimbledon.
AFAIA there is no through fare from Tramlink to and from LU. Therefore
interchanging passengers must validate in or out from LU and validate
"in" at the Tramlink platform at Wimbledon prior to commencing a
Tramlink trip from there. In this location it is all entirely logical
once you realise there is, in effect, a tramlink paid area inside the
SWT / LUL one.

--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:43 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote:


Winbledon is an interesting example. Surely, if yuo validate on a
validator at a tram-stop somewhere, travel to Wimbledon, change to
District Line and then later touch-out at a tube station gateline, why
would it not be possible for the Oyster software to calculate one tram
journey and one tube journey automatically? I cannot se why you have to
validate at Wimbledon in that case.


Because there is no need to validate on exit from the tram - it's all
done before you board just like a bus. Therefore the card is ready for
the next journey. If you only validated on exit from LU you would be
charged £4 on PAYG as there would be no entry transaction at Wimbledon.
AFAIA there is no through fare from Tramlink to and from LU. Therefore
interchanging passengers must validate in or out from LU and validate
"in" at the Tramlink platform at Wimbledon prior to commencing a
Tramlink trip from there. In this location it is all entirely logical
once you realise there is, in effect, a tramlink paid area inside the
SWT / LUL one.

I realise all this but I still think that it should be possible for the
software to treat an exit on a tube gateline with a card with only a
Tramlink validation as one Tramlink and one tube journey.

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram, validated
on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the station through the
barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited at anothr station?

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:05:59 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram, validated
on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the station through the
barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited at anothr station?

A couple of assumptions firstly - if incorrect then let me know in a
reply. Please note that I do not know for certain but I giving what I
think would be the answer based on my knowledge of the system. I am more
than happy to be corrected by those who know for certain.

a) You've arrived at Wimbledon by tram and the first validation is
on the Tramlink platform.
b) You are using PAYG exclusively.

If you validate at the tram link platform then your card will be set for
entry and will deduct £1 or 80p depending on time of day.
If you then proceed to exit via the barriers I would expect you will not
be able to as the last entry will be recorded as "In" at Wimbledon
Tramlink a few minutes earlier. Why would you wish to exit? It is
illogical - you should be on a tram to Croydon!

If you then did your (b) then you would be charged for Tramlink as above
and then charged £4 on exit from LU as there would be no entry
transaction for a LU journey and thus you have not validated correctly
and would have an unresolved journey.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:05:59 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram,
validated on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the
station through the barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited
at anothr station?

A couple of assumptions firstly - if incorrect then let me know in a
reply. Please note that I do not know for certain but I giving what I
think would be the answer based on my knowledge of the system. I am
more than happy to be corrected by those who know for certain.

a) You've arrived at Wimbledon by tram and the first validation is
on the Tramlink platform.
b) You are using PAYG exclusively.

If you validate at the tram link platform then your card will be set
for entry and will deduct £1 or 80p depending on time of day.
If you then proceed to exit via the barriers I would expect you will
not be able to as the last entry will be recorded as "In" at Wimbledon
Tramlink a few minutes earlier. Why would you wish to exit? It is
illogical - you should be on a tram to Croydon!

If you then did your (b) then you would be charged for Tramlink as
above and then charged £4 on exit from LU as there would be no entry
transaction for a LU journey and thus you have not validated correctly
and would have an unresolved journey.



That's what I thought. I've never done the journey myself, but I bet
you're right.

Basically, if you forget to touch in at eg Dundonald Road because the
tram is about to leave, and the tram is packed, and you genuinely try
and show you're not cheating the system by touching in on the platform,
you will in fact be penalised.

If you simply pretend the tram journey never happened, you'd be charged
£4.

If you try and show your honesty, you'd be charged £4.80 or £5.

It is ridiculous, and shows just how draconian this £4 measure really
is.

Because in an ideal world, the system should recognise honesty and
simply charge the £0.80 or £1 and nothing else.

I don't wish to sound too dramatic, but LUL has effectively
singlehandedly destroyed two important mainstays of the way we live.
Basically:

(a) the customer is always right
(b) you are innocent until proven guilty.

What this system does is charge you £4 assuming you're guilty, and then
you have to try and prove your innocence. And when you try and be honest
by touching in on the platform, you are further penalised. The system is
an ass.

Not just LUL, but all over transport for London, especially the little
****s who are so quick to dish out parking tickets.

If I had boarded a tram at Dundonald Road and failed to touch in because
the tram was leaving, I would have done the honest thing and touched in
on the platform before leaving the system. And yet I'd be charged more
than if I tried to cheat it on purpose.

It's like that story I mentioned a little while a go. A guy enters
Plaistow station and the barriers are open, walks through, remembers
that he should have touched in, and then turns and touches "out" not on
the open barrier but on one of the exits. He then goes to Mile End,
exits, and is charged £8.

In this day and age the system should see that it is actually
nonsensical to exit Plaistow and then 10 minutes or so later exit Mile
End and call it two unfinished journeys. But I guess we said goodbye to
good old common sense when we turned all our thinking over to computers.

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:38:38 -0600, Tristán White wrote:

Basically, if you forget to touch in at eg Dundonald Road because the
tram is about to leave, and the tram is packed, and you genuinely try
and show you're not cheating the system by touching in on the platform,
you will in fact be penalised.

Only if you don't touch in on the District Line validators at the
start of your Tube journey.

If you simply pretend the tram journey never happened, you'd be charged
£4.

Ditto.

If you try and show your honesty, you'd be charged £4.80 or £5.

Ditto.

It is ridiculous, and shows just how draconian this £4 measure really
is.

Because in an ideal world, the system should recognise honesty and
simply charge the £0.80 or £1 and nothing else.

If it only charged 80p or £1 then people would be able to get away
with deliberately not touching in in order to save money.

I don't wish to sound too dramatic, but LUL has effectively
singlehandedly destroyed two important mainstays of the way we live.
Basically:

(a) the customer is always right
(b) you are innocent until proven guilty.

What this system does is charge you £4 assuming you're guilty, and then
you have to try and prove your innocence.

I agree with you here. They also go out of their way to make it
difficult to plead your innocence (ticket offices are instructed not
to help you, even though they're otherwise perfectly capable of doing
so).

And when you try and be honest
by touching in on the platform, you are further penalised. The system is
an ass.

I think you're going over the top here. If you're going to go round
haphazardly touching validators you're not required to and not
touching ones you are required to, you can't expect the system to be
able to charge the correct fare.

It's like that story I mentioned a little while a go. A guy enters
Plaistow station and the barriers are open, walks through, remembers
that he should have touched in, and then turns and touches "out" not on
the open barrier but on one of the exits. He then goes to Mile End,
exits, and is charged £8.

In this day and age the system should see that it is actually
nonsensical to exit Plaistow and then 10 minutes or so later exit Mile
End and call it two unfinished journeys. But I guess we said goodbye to
good old common sense when we turned all our thinking over to computers.

In fairness, a dose of common sense is (hopefully) only a phone call
away (albeit an 0845 one) at the Oyster helpdesk.

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:38:38 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:05:59 -0600, "Tristán White"
wrote:

What would you be charged if you forgot to validate on the tram,
validated on the platform at Wimbledon, and either (a) left the
station through the barriers, or (b) continued on the tube and exited
at anothr station?

A couple of assumptions firstly - if incorrect then let me know in a
reply. Please note that I do not know for certain but I giving what I
think would be the answer based on my knowledge of the system. I am
more than happy to be corrected by those who know for certain.

a) You've arrived at Wimbledon by tram and the first validation is
on the Tramlink platform.
b) You are using PAYG exclusively.

If you validate at the tram link platform then your card will be set
for entry and will deduct £1 or 80p depending on time of day.
If you then proceed to exit via the barriers I would expect you will
not be able to as the last entry will be recorded as "In" at Wimbledon
Tramlink a few minutes earlier. Why would you wish to exit? It is
illogical - you should be on a tram to Croydon!

If you then did your (b) then you would be charged for Tramlink as
above and then charged £4 on exit from LU as there would be no entry
transaction for a LU journey and thus you have not validated correctly
and would have an unresolved journey.



That's what I thought. I've never done the journey myself, but I bet
you're right.

Basically, if you forget to touch in at eg Dundonald Road because the
tram is about to leave, and the tram is packed, and you genuinely try
and show you're not cheating the system by touching in on the platform,
you will in fact be penalised.

No you won't. I didn't say anything about a penalty. I said validating
at Wimbledon and then trying to exit would be illogical. A quick check
of the card and a verbal explanation to whoever is on the gateline at
Wimbledon would explain matters.

You have expanded the particular example with extra details.

If you simply pretend the tram journey never happened, you'd be charged
£4.

Only if you fail to touch "in" on one of the validators near the
District Line platforms.

If you try and show your honesty, you'd be charged £4.80 or £5.

No - see above. You should validate "in" before boarding an LU train at
Wimbledon. £4 will be deducted but on exit - providing you validate -
you will be charged the correct Oyster fare for the journey undertaken
from Wimbledon by tube.

It is ridiculous, and shows just how draconian this £4 measure really
is.

No it does not.

Because in an ideal world, the system should recognise honesty and
simply charge the £0.80 or £1 and nothing else.

But it will do that with respect to the tramlink journey anyway. How
can you not be charged more money if you make a trip on the tube?

You are mixing up your scenarios and adding details that partly
invalidate the initial explanation I provided.

I don't wish to sound too dramatic, but LUL has effectively
singlehandedly destroyed two important mainstays of the way we live.
Basically:

(a) the customer is always right
(b) you are innocent until proven guilty.

What this system does is charge you £4 assuming you're guilty, and then
you have to try and prove your innocence. And when you try and be honest
by touching in on the platform, you are further penalised. The system is
an ass.

Sorry but the system is not an ass. This is the first stored value
application *in the world* where it has been deployed onto an urban
network without full gating and separation between all modes. Hong Kong
and Singapore have full gating and full separation of the MTR and KCRC
systems. There are no side gates, open interchanges or ungateable
stations there. The system was designed in from day one - London cannot
afford to do that. Therefore a cash based incentive is required to make
it worthwhile for people to comply with the very simple "in", "out"
validation principle.

The use of the £4 charge was only introduced after the more customer
friendly £1 or £1.50 value deduction on entry concept was found to be
abused by a proportion of users. There would be plenty of people
(rightly) screaming from the rooftops if TfL did not do something to
reduce the fraud risk.

The fact is that PAYG is a valuable additional product that is
attractive to a part of the public transport market. Coupled with the
capping concept it will provide a very easy to use product in time - I
would accept that where we are now with respect to One Day travelcards
and NR validity is very complex and confusing.

Not just LUL, but all over transport for London, especially the little
****s who are so quick to dish out parking tickets.

I can't recall TfL having parking enforcement - please slag off the
right people.

If I had boarded a tram at Dundonald Road and failed to touch in because
the tram was leaving, I would have done the honest thing and touched in
on the platform before leaving the system. And yet I'd be charged more
than if I tried to cheat it on purpose.

No - see above.

It's like that story I mentioned a little while a go. A guy enters
Plaistow station and the barriers are open, walks through, remembers
that he should have touched in, and then turns and touches "out" not on
the open barrier but on one of the exits. He then goes to Mile End,
exits, and is charged £8.

In this day and age the system should see that it is actually
nonsensical to exit Plaistow and then 10 minutes or so later exit Mile
End and call it two unfinished journeys. But I guess we said goodbye to
good old common sense when we turned all our thinking over to computers.

Computers cannot apply the same thought process as a reasoning human
being can. You cannot expect a logic based system which has to read,
validate, decide, write and check data between card and gate to sit
there trying to apply reason.

While I understand your complaint the fact remains that it is highly
unlikely that Plaistow man will repeat his error in the future. I know
you won't agree because you clearly wish to keep complaining about this
aspect of the system but I can see no reason why it will be changed.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!