Richard J. wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Mizter T" typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not
requesting the stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in
Germany it has been necessary to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them,
and sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change
buses there, when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell
you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the
bus, and just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic
suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers
have stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus
ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that
on the approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is
absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is
nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger
the
driver would forget.

Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail
and forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of
occasions!

Wouldn't you call Harrow Bus Station a major compulsory stop[1]?
This is where my partner didn't ring and overshot. It's hardly
surprising others
may ring neurotically.

[1]Underground, National Rail and bus interchange.

I thought that the compulsory/request distinction referred only to
people waiting at the stop, and that passengers on the bus were expected
to ring the bell for any stop.



I never understood it that way for all the decades when the distinction
applied, although the rule was kind of handed now rather than found in
writing. However, now I can't find anything about request and
compulsory stops on the TfL site at all, so I've sent a question. I'll
continue scratching around in my stuff though.

MIG wrote:
Richard J. wrote:
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
"Mizter T" typed


Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Michael Hoffman typed


I think maybe Mizter T means people *inside* the bus not
requesting the stop? Everywhere I have traveled by bus in
Germany it has been necessary to press a button to signal a stop.

I suspect he means both.

I know my partner has missed buses through failing to hail them,
and sailed through Harrow-on-the-Hill when he wanted to change
buses there, when he didn't ring the bell.


Rather than leave you all guessing as to what I meant I'll tell
you!

I had in mind people at request bus stops who fail to hail the
bus, and just expect the driver to know via the power of psychic
suggestion that
he should stop and let them on. Perhaps they're used to the bus
stopping to let people off, but occasionally there are no alighting
passengers so those at the bus stop will find their psychic powers
have stopped working.

I find the opposite situation, that of no-one on board the bus
ringing
the bell, is a less common occurrence - and I remain amused that
on the approach to a major compulsory stop, one where the bus is
absolutely
bound to stop (a major interchange for example), there is
nonetheless
often a chorus of dings on the bell as if there was some danger
the
driver would forget.

Like Helen's partner I've nonetheless managed to both fail to hail
and forget to ding and missed my bus/stop on a good few number of
occasions!

Wouldn't you call Harrow Bus Station a major compulsory stop[1]?
This is where my partner didn't ring and overshot. It's hardly
surprising others
may ring neurotically.

[1]Underground, National Rail and bus interchange.

I thought that the compulsory/request distinction referred only to
people waiting at the stop, and that passengers on the bus were expected
to ring the bell for any stop.



I never understood it that way for all the decades when the distinction
applied, although the rule was kind of handed now rather than found in
writing. However, now I can't find anything about request and
compulsory stops on the TfL site at all, so I've sent a question. I'll
continue scratching around in my stuff though.



And almost immediately I find a bus map from 1981 with pictures of the
two types of stop and explanations as follows.

(White backgroud, red ring, black bar) "This is a 'compulsory' bus stop
where every bus on the route concerned will stop without being hailed.
At busy times it is quicker (and fairer) to form a queue."

(Red background, white ring and bar) "This is a 'request' bus stop
where the bus will only stop if you signal it to do so by waving your
arm or by ringing the bell once if you are already a passenger."

I always thought it was odd when my mother said "wave" but actually
she, and everyone else, simply stuck their arm out. That's not waving
really, is it?

MIG wrote:

MIG wrote:

(snip)
I never understood it that way for all the decades when the distinction
applied, although the rule was kind of handed now rather than found in
writing. However, now I can't find anything about request and
compulsory stops on the TfL site at all, so I've sent a question. I'll
continue scratching around in my stuff though.


And almost immediately I find a bus map from 1981 with pictures of the
two types of stop and explanations as follows.

(White backgroud, red ring, black bar) "This is a 'compulsory' bus stop
where every bus on the route concerned will stop without being hailed.
At busy times it is quicker (and fairer) to form a queue."

(Red background, white ring and bar) "This is a 'request' bus stop
where the bus will only stop if you signal it to do so by waving your
arm or by ringing the bell once if you are already a passenger."

I always thought it was odd when my mother said "wave" but actually
she, and everyone else, simply stuck their arm out. That's not waving
really, is it?


I remember such information being commonplace. However the only
contemporary mention I can find is in the notes accompanying the five
area bus maps (Central, NE, NW, SE & SW) and it only relates to night
buses. There is a picture of a red-backgrounded request stop
accompanying this text:

"All bus stops are treated as request stops between 0100 and 0430.
Additionally N-prefix night bus routes stop by request only at all
times. Please clearly signal to the driver when you wish to get on or
off the bus."

You can also find mention of when the system was introduced in 1935 in
this Designed for London education pack from the Transport Museum (page
30 [1]):

~~~~~
1935
'Fixed stop' system for buses introduced
First LT programme of compulsory and request bus stops started"
~~~~~

I'm not an expert on bus stops but I do know they're a surprisingly
late innovation - the above suggests as late as 1935, in London at
least. I don't know if someone else can flesh out the history of this a
bit.

Back to the present, I guess there is some argument for rolling out the
night bus rules to all buses - i.e. all stops are request stops. Given
that current TfL literature doesn't mention the two types of stops
(apart from with regards to night buses) perhaps things are just slowly
evolving that way anyway. Though I, like the others here, would of
course be interested to know what London Buses' policy or thinking
about this issue is, if any.


----------
[1] !Large PDF file!
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/TfL_educationpack.pdf

In message .com,
Mizter T writes

1935
'Fixed stop' system for buses introduced
First LT programme of compulsory and request bus stops started"
~~~~~

I'm not an expert on bus stops but I do know they're a surprisingly
late innovation - the above suggests as late as 1935, in London at
least.

I think that reference is simply to the LPTB's policy to rationalise
(using the "roundel" logo as a brand) the bewildering variety of signs
inherited from their bus and tram predecessors.

Signs were not always used if the place to wait was fairly obvious, such
as outside a pub or railway station, but elsewhere there were
rectangular plates attached to lampposts, triangular signs, discs on
poles, elaborate wrought-iron contrivances and, in the early 30s,
"tombstone" shapes (rectangular lower half with curved top).
--
Paul Terry

On Jan 23, 4:55 pm, "Mizter T" wrote:
MIG wrote:
MIG wrote:

(snip)
I never understood it that way for all the decades when the distinction
applied, although the rule was kind of handed now rather than found in
writing. However, now I can't find anything about request and
compulsory stops on the TfL site at all, so I've sent a question. I'll
continue scratching around in my stuff though.

And almost immediately I find a bus map from 1981 with pictures of the
two types of stop and explanations as follows.

(White backgroud, red ring, black bar) "This is a 'compulsory' bus stop
where every bus on the route concerned will stop without being hailed.
At busy times it is quicker (and fairer) to form a queue."

(Red background, white ring and bar) "This is a 'request' bus stop
where the bus will only stop if you signal it to do so by waving your
arm or by ringing the bell once if you are already a passenger."

I always thought it was odd when my mother said "wave" but actually
she, and everyone else, simply stuck their arm out. That's not waving
really, is it?I remember such information being commonplace. However the only
contemporary mention I can find is in the notes accompanying the five
area bus maps (Central, NE, NW, SE & SW) and it only relates to night
buses. There is a picture of a red-backgrounded request stop
accompanying this text:

"All bus stops are treated as request stops between 0100 and 0430.
Additionally N-prefix night bus routes stop by request only at all
times. Please clearly signal to the driver when you wish to get on or
off the bus."

You can also find mention of when the system was introduced in 1935 in
this Designed for London education pack from the Transport Museum (page
30 [1]):

~~~~~
1935
'Fixed stop' system for buses introduced
First LT programme of compulsory and request bus stops started"
~~~~~

I'm not an expert on bus stops but I do know they're a surprisingly
late innovation - the above suggests as late as 1935, in London at
least. I don't know if someone else can flesh out the history of this a
bit.

Back to the present, I guess there is some argument for rolling out the
night bus rules to all buses - i.e. all stops are request stops. Given
that current TfL literature doesn't mention the two types of stops
(apart from with regards to night buses) perhaps things are just slowly
evolving that way anyway. Though I, like the others here, would of
course be interested to know what London Buses' policy or thinking
about this issue is, if any.


I got this reply from TfL

"Thank you for your recent email about bus stopping arrangements. I can
confirm that the rules of compulsory and request stops still apply.

Our drivers are trained to stop at all white compulsory stops. They
should also stop at red request stops when a passenger presses the bell
or hails the bus from the bus stop. If another bus is blocking the
stop, the driver should wait until it has moved away to ensure he
doesn't miss any waiting passengers. It is disappointing to hear that
these basic procedures weren't followed on the day concerned.

London Buses monitors driver behaviour through its regular, network
wide monitoring, such as Customer Satisfaction and Mystery Traveller
surveys. In addition, the Driver Quality Monitoring (DQM) programme,
carried out for TfL by the Driving Standards Agency (DSA), checks for
safety and also assesses the overall quality of driving standards"


I didn't mention a "day concerned", and whatever the rule is, we seem
to be agreed that buses don't generally stop unless firmly requested to.