On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:09:43 +0100, Wolfgang Schwanke
wrote:

Hello again,

during my last London trip I witnessed a group of police and LU staff
"guarding" the exits of the station. They caught one man just coming
out of the station when I was there, he seemed rather upset (I didn't
see how he got through the fare gates). Also inside the station I saw a
policeman taking down the ID of some passenger. My interpretation was
that they were on hunt for fare dodgers.

The part I don't understand is why they do this in the first place. I
thought the LU system is rather "fraud safe". You can't get in or out
of the system without some form of valid ticket (except by climbing
over the gates or taking a detour to a DLR station), so hunting down
fare dodgers should be pointless. What am I missing?

The event was in Archway BTW.

The LU system is not free of fraud. There are a number of things that
can happen [1] so a human presence to trap people is used. A further
tactic has been to use police (with sniffer dogs) as well because it can
be the case that people dodging fares may be in possession of weapons or
drugs or materials to graffiti the system.

On top of all of that we have the threat of attack to the system.

We have had a reasonable number of these checks at Walthamstow Central
and the police have been kept busy interviewing and detaining people. We
have also had the mobile metal detector / walk through scanner used too.

[1] I'm not publishing details of potential frauds on usenet.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Feb 10, 1:41 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:09:43 +0100, Wolfgang Schwanke
wrote:



Hello again,

during my last London trip I witnessed a group of police and LU staff
"guarding" the exits of the station. They caught one man just coming
out of the station when I was there, he seemed rather upset (I didn't
see how he got through the fare gates). Also inside the station I saw a
policeman taking down the ID of some passenger. My interpretation was
that they were on hunt for fare dodgers.

The part I don't understand is why they do this in the first place. I
thought the LU system is rather "fraud safe". You can't get in or out
of the system without some form of valid ticket (except by climbing
over the gates or taking a detour to a DLR station), so hunting down
fare dodgers should be pointless. What am I missing?

The event was in Archway BTW.

The LU system is not free of fraud. There are a number of things that
can happen [1] so a human presence to trap people is used. A further
tactic has been to use police (with sniffer dogs) as well because it can
be the case that people dodging fares may be in possession of weapons or
drugs or materials to graffiti the system.

On top of all of that we have the threat of attack to the system.

We have had a reasonable number of these checks at Walthamstow Central
and the police have been kept busy interviewing and detaining people. We
have also had the mobile metal detector / walk through scanner used too.

[1] I'm not publishing details of potential frauds on usenet.

Some I can't see how you can catch, even with checks on trains. I
accosted a middle-class fare dodger at my local station the other day,
they had followed through the barrier on my heels so I loudly informed
them that fare dodging was illegal and punishable by a £1000 fine. She
insisted that she had a valid ticket but it wasn't valid until after
09:30 (it was 0900), and it was no buisness of mine, to which I
responded if it's valid, it would open the barrier, and if you're fare
dodging you're increasing my fare and making my station seem less used
than it is, leading to possible closure.

Guy in the "ticket office" (which doesnt sell ticket) wasn't bothered
though, too busy reading the paper.

The guy in the ticket office

Paul Weaver wrote:

Some I can't see how you can catch, even with checks on trains. I
accosted a middle-class fare dodger at my local station the other day,
they had followed through the barrier on my heels so I loudly informed
them that fare dodging was illegal and punishable by a £1000 fine. She
insisted that she had a valid ticket but it wasn't valid until after
09:30 (it was 0900), and it was no buisness of mine, to which I
responded if it's valid, it would open the barrier, and if you're fare
dodging you're increasing my fare and making my station seem less used
than it is, leading to possible closure.

Not to mention making you an unwitting accomplice if she does it right
on your heels as you said.
--
Michael Hoffman

On 10 Feb 2007 06:13:19 -0800, "Paul Weaver"
wrote:

Some I can't see how you can catch, even with checks on trains. I
accosted a middle-class fare dodger at my local station the other day,
they had followed through the barrier on my heels so I loudly informed
them that fare dodging was illegal and punishable by a £1000 fine. She
insisted that she had a valid ticket but it wasn't valid until after
09:30 (it was 0900), and it was no buisness of mine, to which I
responded if it's valid, it would open the barrier, and if you're fare
dodging you're increasing my fare and making my station seem less used
than it is, leading to possible closure.

If, and it's a big if, you detect you are to be subjected to "a lambada"
through a gate then it's quite fun to stop before the end of the aisle
and make loud shouty noises about what on earth is going on. ;-)

This sort of fraud can be dealt with if there are plain clothes
inspectors and police waiting in the ticket hall area. Local staff will
know if there is a prevalence for such behaviour at particular times and
suitable observation and checks can be put in place. CCTV coverage at
gatelines also assists in identifying the problem. I accept, though,
that a proportion of such fraud is opportunistic which is harder to deal
with.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

If, and it's a big if, you detect you are to be subjected to "a lambada"
through a gate then it's quite fun to stop before the end of the aisle
and make loud shouty noises about what on earth is going on. ;-)

But the staff seem barely bothered. On a couple of occasions I have
complained to the guard about this and they just shrug their
shoulders. A short while back (about 6 months ago) at North Greenwich
a man bundled in behind my girlfriend and was shoving so hard he
bundled her over - he was a big bloke with 2 friends so the incident
was fairly alarming - I immediately approached the guard who told them
not to do it again but took no further action. This will go on being a
problem until LU takes it seriously.

whos2091 wrote:
If, and it's a big if, you detect you are to be subjected to "a lambada"
through a gate then it's quite fun to stop before the end of the aisle
and make loud shouty noises about what on earth is going on. ;-)

But the staff seem barely bothered. On a couple of occasions I have
complained to the guard about this and they just shrug their
shoulders. A short while back (about 6 months ago) at North Greenwich
a man bundled in behind my girlfriend and was shoving so hard he
bundled her over - he was a big bloke with 2 friends so the incident
was fairly alarming - I immediately approached the guard who told them
not to do it again but took no further action. This will go on being a
problem until LU takes it seriously.


FWIW, when some little teenage oik tried to follow me in at East
Croydon, and I blocked him in, and turned round to shout "oi
wodyerfinkyerdoin", a large BTP officer appeared from nowhere in seconds
and took him for "a word" :-)

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Arthur Figgis wrote:
whos2091 wrote:
If, and it's a big if, you detect you are to be subjected to "a lambada"
through a gate then it's quite fun to stop before the end of the aisle
and make loud shouty noises about what on earth is going on. ;-)

But the staff seem barely bothered. On a couple of occasions I have
complained to the guard about this and they just shrug their
shoulders. A short while back (about 6 months ago) at North Greenwich
a man bundled in behind my girlfriend and was shoving so hard he
bundled her over - he was a big bloke with 2 friends so the incident
was fairly alarming - I immediately approached the guard who told them
not to do it again but took no further action. This will go on being a
problem until LU takes it seriously.


FWIW, when some little teenage oik tried to follow me in at East
Croydon, and I blocked him in, and turned round to shout "oi
wodyerfinkyerdoin", a large BTP officer appeared from nowhere in seconds
and took him for "a word" :-)

I was waiting for a friend at Embankment the other day and watched in
interest as a rather eccentric guy staked out near the station
entrances, picked a target heading for the gates, strode after them
quickly, got stuck in the gates and effed and blinded for a few moments,
then went back to the entrances and tried exactly the same thing another
time before succeeding the third time. The gateline staff didn't seem
too interested.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Paul Weaver wrote:

they had followed through the barrier on my heels

I always check before inserting my ticket that there is no-one behind me...
but this might be impossible in rush hour.

In message , John Rowland
writes
Paul Weaver wrote:

they had followed through the barrier on my heels

I always check before inserting my ticket that there is no-one behind me...
but this might be impossible in rush hour.


If they get it wrong you can find yourself up against a locked barrier
in close proximity to a very dodgy individual. Not the best way to treat
loyal customers and there must be a better way of doing it.

How about a photo card, a weekly ticket and gates with human being on
them ? :-)


--
Edward Cowling London UK

"John Rowland" typed


Paul Weaver wrote:

they had followed through the barrier on my heels

I always check before inserting my ticket that there is no-one behind me...
but this might be impossible in rush hour.


I suddenly get very slow and wobbly when I'm tailgated; shame about
trading on toes...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.