On Feb 25, 11:04 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
MIG wrote:
Someone did point out that the revenue would be divided differently,
and FGW wouldn't get any of it, which was why they would have
objected.

Looked at that way, it's not much different, logically, from paying in
advance for a Ryanair flight and trying to use your booking on a train
to Southall because it's the same price. Or handing over your money
in one shop and taking goods out of another on the grounds that the
price was the same.

It's very different. It's more like if you handed over your money in one
shop so you could collect at another location, and then when you got to
the location they said you had never paid for the goods. (Not so
far-fetched--for example it is possible to pay at the John Lewis in
Cambridge and then pick up your items at a remote collection spot
several miles away.)


Let's not confuse the issue of the mistake made here by One, who seem
to have sold the wrong ticket, and your point about it being in
general a zero excess if you buy a ticket to one place and go to
another place where it's the same price, and where there are different
companies involved.

The ticket would seem to have been to Underground Zone 4, and this is
not the same place as Southall, and the trains that go there are not
run by the same company (although they should be a nationalised
network of course).

MIG wrote:
On Feb 25, 11:04 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
MIG wrote:
Someone did point out that the revenue would be divided differently,
and FGW wouldn't get any of it, which was why they would have
objected.
Looked at that way, it's not much different, logically, from paying in
advance for a Ryanair flight and trying to use your booking on a train
to Southall because it's the same price. Or handing over your money
in one shop and taking goods out of another on the grounds that the
price was the same.
It's very different. It's more like if you handed over your money in one
shop so you could collect at another location, and then when you got to
the location they said you had never paid for the goods. (Not so
far-fetched--for example it is possible to pay at the John Lewis in
Cambridge and then pick up your items at a remote collection spot
several miles away.)

Let's not confuse the issue of the mistake made here by One, who seem
to have sold the wrong ticket, and your point about it being in
general a zero excess if you buy a ticket to one place and go to
another place where it's the same price, and where there are different
companies involved.

And let's not confuse the issue of the economics from the train
company's point of view with my question of whether the inspector could
have instead issued a zero fare excess. This would have resulted in the
companies dealing with the problem themselves rather than bothering the
poor passenger.

The ticket would seem to have been to Underground Zone 4, and this is
not the same place as Southall, and the trains that go there are not
run by the same company (although they should be a nationalised
network of course).

They're a national (not nationalized) network until it's
inconvenient--then they can blame the other company for selling the
wrong ticket.
--
Michael Hoffman

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:01:12 -0000, Peter Smyth wrote:

The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS
Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground
stations in zone 4.

How did you arrive at £4.40? I reckon £5.10 is the correct price for a
Goodmayes - U1234 ticket.

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:44:54 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Not 100% certain but from the details given and what I've read I would
say he's been charged the right fare by "one" but issued the wrong
ticket. At present prices are zonal but tickets are issued from "a to b"
which means it should have said Goodmayes to Southall on it and not
U1234.

After a close reading of the NFM (and though at first I got the same
impression as Barry Salter) I think you're right here. Both tickets
are Train Tube Singles, but such a ticket issued to U1234 is only
valid for journeys that end at an LU/DLR station.

This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU
network as far as zone 4.

To be pedantic, I don't think this is true, strictly speaking. I
reckon it would be valid for a journey such as: 'one' to Liverpool
Street; Tube to Victoria; Southern to Balham; Tube to Morden.

(Basically, by any combination of LU and NR within the zones on the
ticket, as long as you end up at an LU/DLR station. It may or may not
be hidden somewhere in some Conditions of Carriage that your route
also has to be "reasonable".)

However, if your ticket started from a station outside the zones (e.g.
Chelmsford to U1234) then it *wouldn't* be a Train Tube Single, and
the usual pre-Jan-2006 rules apply, i.e. you *would* be restricted to
the LU/DLR network (and interavailable routes) once you got to
Liverpool Street (or Stratford, if you changed there).

"asdf" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:01:12 -0000, Peter Smyth wrote:

The correct ticket is a SDS Goodmayes - Southall for £5.10. A SDS
Goodmayes - Zone U1234 is £4.40 and would only be valid at Underground
stations in zone 4.

How did you arrive at £4.40? I reckon £5.10 is the correct price for a
Goodmayes - U1234 ticket.

£4.40 is the price listed in the National Fares Manual.

Peter Smyth

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 05:17:16 +0000, asdf
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:44:54 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Not 100% certain but from the details given and what I've read I would
say he's been charged the right fare by "one" but issued the wrong
ticket. At present prices are zonal but tickets are issued from "a to b"
which means it should have said Goodmayes to Southall on it and not
U1234.

After a close reading of the NFM (and though at first I got the same
impression as Barry Salter) I think you're right here. Both tickets
are Train Tube Singles, but such a ticket issued to U1234 is only
valid for journeys that end at an LU/DLR station.

Having read the NFM details I'm sure I am correct.

This ticket only gives validity to Liv St and then onto the LU
network as far as zone 4.

To be pedantic, I don't think this is true, strictly speaking. I
reckon it would be valid for a journey such as: 'one' to Liverpool
Street; Tube to Victoria; Southern to Balham; Tube to Morden.

Sorry but I think you are wrong with this example. Victoria to Balham is
not interavailable so is in effect another TOC journey. I doubt very
much that the ticket would work the gates on the interchange at Victoria
or at Balham.

I appreciate the NFM cites the above link in an example but only for
tickets issued from London Terminals to U1234 - this is fine as it
covers Southern to Balham and then a continuation on LU to Morden.

A ticket purchaser would have to decide whether they wished to use NR
and then only LU to reach Balham or else buy a ticket from their origin
to Balham (NR) and then rebook to Morden. Other than a One Day
Travelcard I do not think there is a ticket that allows NR - LU - NR -
LU as a set of journey legs where the NR legs are not interavailable
with a LU service.

(Basically, by any combination of LU and NR within the zones on the
ticket, as long as you end up at an LU/DLR station. It may or may not
be hidden somewhere in some Conditions of Carriage that your route
also has to be "reasonable".)

The rules say "any permitted" route but subject to the differing basic
availabilities of NR Zonal and Train Tube Zonal products.

However, if your ticket started from a station outside the zones (e.g.
Chelmsford to U1234) then it *wouldn't* be a Train Tube Single, and
the usual pre-Jan-2006 rules apply, i.e. you *would* be restricted to
the LU/DLR network (and interavailable routes) once you got to
Liverpool Street (or Stratford, if you changed there).

You'd be restricted to the TfL rail network within the zones requested
on your ticket. The NFM extract also says you could effectively ask for
a London terminals to "U" combination where there was not a through fare
to "U" defined in the ticketing system.

I think I'm glad I'm not a booking clerk!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

There are two different types of zonal fares that apply now. First up, you
have the "rail only" zonal fares, and then there are the "Train-Tube"
fares.

The latter are the only variety valid on the tube and are issued from the
origin station to the appropriate zonal combination (or vice versa).

So, in this example, your friend was issued precisely the correct ticket
(namely Goodmayes to U1234), and the member of staff at Southall was
talking through his backside.

My reading of the NFM section quoted was that the ticket price was based on
the zonal fares but that it should still be issued as a point to point
ticket.

I often used to buy a single from East Croydon to Edmonton Green. The
ticket office staff at East Croydon invariably looked up Edmonton Green in a
big book and then issued me with an East Croydon to U1234 ticket. It used
to annoy me because it cost more than the correct single ticket. I never
realised I was also travelling on an invalid ticket.


G.

On 26 Feb, 20:28, "Graham J" wrote:

I often used to buy a single from East Croydon to Edmonton Green. *The
ticket office staff at East Croydon invariably looked up Edmonton Green in a
big book and then issued me with an East Croydon to U1234 ticket. *It used
to annoy me because it cost more than the correct single ticket. *I never
realised I was also travelling on an invalid ticket.

G.

IMX both as a booking clerk, sorry Customer Service Officer, and as a
passenger, is that the procedure, especially at stations outside or on
the other side of London, goes like this:

Pax: Single to (eg) Streatham Hill please.
Clerk: (1) Looks up Travelcard/london Fare Area map and sees SRH is in
Zone 3, OR (to colleague), "What zone's Streatham Hill in, Dave?")
(2) Issues SDS to U123.

Many staff simply don't understand the difference, as the original
Goodmayes example, and now East Croydon, show. Adequate training is
the only answer. My advice to colleagues was always if you were
unsure, try to issue as a point-to point. If this doesn't work, then
it's more than likely on the Underground, so then check the Travelcard
map and issue a U-zone ticket.

There is always the possibility that it is a non-existent place,
though - I was recently asked for a single to "Bell Common Green".
Turned out it was Bush Hill Park (Enfield) he wanted.

Ken

"Ken" wrote

There is always the possibility that it is a non-existent place,
though - I was recently asked for a single to "Bell Common Green".
Turned out it was Bush Hill Park (Enfield) he wanted.

There is also the possibility that the passenger gives the name of a
station, but actually wants to go somewhere entirely different. The Southern
Region's prime example was Grove Park. The passenger may want the junction
for the Bromley North branch, but he might possibly really want Chiswick (as
Chiswick station is in the area known as Grove Park).

Peter

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:17:54 -0000, "Peter Masson"
wrote:


"Ken" wrote

There is always the possibility that it is a non-existent place,
though - I was recently asked for a single to "Bell Common Green".
Turned out it was Bush Hill Park (Enfield) he wanted.

There is also the possibility that the passenger gives the name of a
station, but actually wants to go somewhere entirely different. The Southern
Region's prime example was Grove Park. The passenger may want the junction
for the Bromley North branch, but he might possibly really want Chiswick (as
Chiswick station is in the area known as Grove Park).

And there are the AMerican tourists used to dropping "Street", "Road"
etc.

When they ask for "Baker" it's obvious, but "Oxford"? Even "Edgware"?


Peter