North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote

£1 with Oyster, or £1 with a Bus Saver ticket (sold as a carnet of 6
for £6).

After a long ponder on this I came to the conclusion that charging
double for those paying cash is not only probably illegal if someone
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft
for
a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes I
am
sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)

I expect Red Ken will organise day release classes for working people
who are too dim to understand Oyster.

It is not illegal for almost any business to refuse cash since legal
tender is an odder concept than you might think. No one has to accept
pounds unless there is a pre-existing debt (so restaurants but not
ordinary stores, penalty fares but not ordinary fares) and no one is
legally obliged to give change.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/bankn...egaltender.htm

--
Mike D

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
In message .com,
Mizter T writes

Bikes definitely shouldn't be allowed on at peak times - and I speak
not as a bicycle hater but as a keen cyclist - when it's busy the
space available should be for people! Bizarrely I note that Silverlink
don't appear to have any policy banning bikes on the NLL at peak times
[1], which is pretty silly.

Yes. You can just see a fairly minor shunt somewhere leaving a lot of
people with handlebar size holes in vital areas. Then of course Silver
Link will be saying, "we had no idea, if only we'd been aware of the
problem."


Please understand that the following comment isn't me trying to be
belligerent, it really isn't, but if someone is paying £2 for a bus
fare on more than a few occasions then they're being a bit of a mug.
£1 with Oyster, or £1 with a Bus Saver ticket (sold as a carnet of 6
for £6).

After a long ponder on this I came to the conclusion that charging
double for those paying cash is not only probably illegal if someone
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft for
a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes I am
sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)

Isn't that implying that the "working class people of London" are too
stupid to work out what the cheapest fare is? There's absolutely no
reason why such people can't get Oyster cards. There's even New Deal
Oyster for jobseekers, and soon Venezuelan Oil Oyster for people on
income support...

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

North London Line Revisited
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:11:35 +0000, Dave A wrote:

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
Well I've now done three weeks on the North London Line and it's been an
experience.

Then there is Highbury & Islington ! You can hear people on mobiles
telling friends, "We're at Highbury and Islington, there'll be trouble,
there always is." The train pulls in and the people on the platform are
so packed in that they can't make a gap for the people getting off. A
sort of scrum develops and people moan at each other. The frontier
express spirit would still mean nothing serious would happen, but the
staff at Highbury & Islington then play their trump card. They start
shouting at people through megaphones (honest) and of course that gets
things nicely heated up and trouble ensues. Eventually a lone police
woman comes down the stairs, uses a bit of common sense, stops the staff
shouting and order is restored.

I was reliably informed today that trains arriving at Highbury &
Islington on the NLL are (officially) the most crowded in London. I'm
sure that's no surprise to you (but it usually is to everyone else who
thinks their trains are the most packed in London, and can't understand
how trains on a line that doesn't even go *into* central London can be
more crowded)!!

I have to say I was a bit surprised to read both of these comments. They
are rather revealing though. I am now somewhat intrigued and may well
toddle along sometime to take a look at just how awful it is. I shall
try to stay in a place where I am not in the way though!

I imagine from a statistical point of view, the main issue is how short
the trains are - PIXC measures the ratio of seats to standing, and those
NLL trains don't have many seats!

If it is like this now I cannot imagine what will happen when
improvements to the overall service start being delivered and suppressed
demand starts to be unlocked - it'll be (even more) awful! That's a
very real challenge for whoever will be running the service. LU will be
taking over the operation of those platforms / station buildings come
November so there the local staff will have all that to deal with.

It will be quite tricky. The station improvement programme will launch
pretty quickly, and that in itself will attract more people to the line
before the trains are even touched. The infrastructure works to permit
the doubling of frequencies can't start until 2009/10 and will run for
three years (pencilled in as west NLL, then east NLL, then GOBLIN).

I have yet another document in front of me which mentions a slightly
different service pattern than the ones I have seen previously - people
have been mentioning 8tph on the ELL to Dalston Junction and only 4tph
beyond to Highbury, but this says 8tph to Highbury (4tph from Crystal
Palace, 4tph from New Cross) and 4tph to Dalston Junction (from West
Croydon). It also mentions "additional peak services to/from Dalston
Junction" (which I presume means fromto/from the south!).

These frequencies are set out as part of Service Level Commitment 2,
which would also see 2tph Stratford - Clapham J, 4tph Stratford -
Richmond and 2tph Stratford - Camden Road - resulting in 16tph from the
Dalston stations to Highbury. That should be more than enough to satisfy
both existing and new demand on that section of line, but of course it
has to wait until the new ELL curve opens in 2011. Prior to that, the
8tph Stratford to Camden Road should be running, but presumably only
from 2010 when infrastructure works have been done.

There may be scope for extra "PIXC-buster" services in the peaks between
Camden Road and Stratford in the meantime - I'm not really sure what the
plan for that is.

Unfortunately, platform extensions are a very tricky business - there
are various plans for them, but as someone else mentioned, some stations
are especially tricky - Dalston Kingsland is one of them (overbridges at
each end). Selective door opening has been mentioned for lightly-used
stations, but Dalston Kingsland isn't one of them.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , Dave A
writes
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft
for a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes
I am sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)

Isn't that implying that the "working class people of London" are too
stupid to work out what the cheapest fare is? There's absolutely no
reason why such people can't get Oyster cards. There's even New Deal
Oyster for jobseekers, and soon Venezuelan Oil Oyster for people on
income support...

Your missing the point really. I'm not saying Oyster needs and degree to
use, I'm asking why it has to be cheaper than using cash ? I use an
Oyster with a travel card, and I fail to see why I can use the buses out
to zone 6 for free, yet someone going for a job interview has to pay two
quid !

There was an action brought against an electricity company for charging
key meter customers more than those on quarterly bills. The action was
won and the electricity company had to give large credits to it's key
meter customers. That seems to have set a precedent that could be
applied to charging more to cash users of the transport system. Cash is
still used every day by just about everyone in the UK. Try getting your
morning cuppa at the local cafe with a debit card :-) So fares should
be the same price for cash, as they are on Oyster.

Personally I'd vote for the party that reverted to the old pricing
system and abolished the congestion charge. Anyone fancy starting a one
trick party called say... UK common sense for London party ?? ;-)

It's been done before !!
--
Edward Cowling London UK

North London Line Revisited
 

In message , David of Broadway
writes

And I can't understand why anyone who lives in the London area or ever
visits the London area wouldn't have an Oyster card.

Perhaps because it cannot be used for occasional travel into London on
most of the National Rail network. This will eventually change, of
course.
--
Paul Terry

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:
I think you're being a might near sighted about this. I'm sure a great
many tourists arrive here without a clue about Oyster and (to their
mind) get ripped off for expensive fares.

The entire point of the tourism industry is to get people to spend as
much of their money here as possible - it isn't supposed to be a
benevolent charity or even a value proposition. Tourists should pay as
much for travel as the market can sustain, at least as far as it won't
dissuade them from visiting as many high-cost venues as possible.

As the film "Mafia!" said in regard to Vegas tourists; "The smart ones
just send us the money and save on plane fare".

ESB

North London Line Revisited
 

Edward Cowling London UK wrote:

I fail to see why I can use the buses out
to zone 6 for free, yet someone going for a job interview has to pay two
quid !

What's this "has to" all about? As has been said before, if they just do
two single tube journeys EVER, they have already saved more than the £3
deposit.

There was an action brought against an electricity company for charging
key meter customers more than those on quarterly bills. The action was
won and the electricity company had to give large credits to it's key
meter customers.

Most people on key meters have NO choice in the matter, as they didn't
have the credit rating. I am pretty sure that is why. You don't have to
pass a credit check to buy a PAYG Oyster.

North London Line Revisited
 

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:45:07 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

As the film "Mafia!" said in regard to Vegas tourists; "The smart ones
just send us the money and save on plane fare".

LOL! - a rather good quote.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

North London Line Revisited
 

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:24:28 +0000, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , Dave A
writes
wanted to take it through the courts. But it's also just plain daft
for a Mayor purporting to serve the working people of London. And yes
I am sorry for using words like purporting on a Friday night :-)

Isn't that implying that the "working class people of London" are too
stupid to work out what the cheapest fare is? There's absolutely no
reason why such people can't get Oyster cards. There's even New Deal
Oyster for jobseekers, and soon Venezuelan Oil Oyster for people on
income support...

Your missing the point really. I'm not saying Oyster needs and degree to
use, I'm asking why it has to be cheaper than using cash ? I use an
Oyster with a travel card, and I fail to see why I can use the buses out
to zone 6 for free, yet someone going for a job interview has to pay two
quid !

Oyster is cheaper because overall it delivers huge benefits to TfL and
its customers by being faster, more convenient and saves money relating
to cash payment and processing as well as reducing boarding and queuing
times. These are all hugely important. Therefore there is a push to get
people out of cash by applying a differential.

There is no barrier to people holding an Oyster card and thus
benefitting from lower fares. Such differentials are absolutely standard
on all systems I have used - Hong Kong and Singapore certainly operate
lower fares on bus and rail for Smartcard users compared to cash. There
are also product discounts that are *only* available if you use a card.
These are typically free or discounted transfer trips on a second bus or
a bus to / from a metro service. All of this is entirely legitimate.

There was an action brought against an electricity company for charging
key meter customers more than those on quarterly bills. The action was
won and the electricity company had to give large credits to it's key
meter customers. That seems to have set a precedent that could be
applied to charging more to cash users of the transport system. Cash is
still used every day by just about everyone in the UK. Try getting your
morning cuppa at the local cafe with a debit card :-) So fares should
be the same price for cash, as they are on Oyster.

Sorry but flawed logic. See my examples above - nothing illegal about
them. You might also be shocked at how many people use debit cards in
stores for purchases (including food and drink) of about £1 or over.

Another person has responded on the electricity issue - Oyster vs cash
fares is not the same.

Personally I'd vote for the party that reverted to the old pricing
system and abolished the congestion charge. Anyone fancy starting a one
trick party called say... UK common sense for London party ?? ;-)

As you would appear from your posts to be a natural Tory supporter I
look forward to your reaction when David Cameron's candidate for London
Mayor fails to adopt your preferred (but backward) policies.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

North London Line Revisited
 

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007, TimB wrote:

On Mar 16, 10:20 pm, "Jack Taylor" wrote:
plus some!

Not really - Ipswich-Peterborough would do (widening and
electrification, please).

Part of the problem is the number of larger containers that are
currently only passed for the route via the NLL. IIRC Hutchinson Ports
have already offered to contribute towards gauge enhancements on the
Ipswich to Peterborough route, to allow trains to run that way.

Which is what I meant by widening. The sooner the better!

I believe the issue with the gauge is not one of width, but rather of
height - the shipping industry of moving from standard containers with a
height of 8'6" to the 'high cube' type with a height of 9'6". Standard
containers will go through the W8 gauge, but high cubes won't; i *think*
high cubes will fit in W9 gauge, but don't quote me on that - it rather
depends on how high the bed of the wagon is.

So, if by 'widening', you meant 'increasing the height', fine. But i wish
you'd said so in the first place!

tom

--
WHO REPLACED THE CLIENT FILES WITH TEQUILA.. ALFONZ??