Barry Salter wrote:

Perfectly correct, as there is no obvious way of travelling between the
stations in question without passing through Zone 1, and £1.50 is the
Oyster Single fare for a journey in Zone 1.

Notting Hill Gate is in an odd position zonewise.

Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

If they're treated as Z2-6, am I breaking any rules if I travel via
Earl's Court rather than Ealing Broadway? And if they're treated as
Z1-6 by default, is there any way to prove to the system that I traveled
via Ealing Broadway (e.g., touch an Oyster pad at Ealing Broadway) so
I'm charged the lower fare?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On 30 Apr, 16:37, David of Broadway
wrote:
Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

(to work out zones you need to know the nominal single fares, which I
don't think are online any more)

If they're treated as Z2-6, am I breaking any rules if I travel via
Earl's Court rather than Ealing Broadway? And if they're treated as
Z1-6 by default, is there any way to prove to the system that I traveled
via Ealing Broadway (e.g., touch an Oyster pad at Ealing Broadway) so
I'm charged the lower fare?

As I understand it, each pair of stations is assigned a particular
fare, regardless of route taken. If you touch the reader at Ealing
Broadway you'd probably just be charged for a new journey. Similarly,
there a few journeys where you have to touch a reader halfway through,
but it doesn't affect the fare calculation (eg If the fare is set as
not via Z1, and you use an out-of-station interchange in Z1, it
doesn't increase the fare).

U

On 30 Apr 2007 09:47:08 -0700, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 30 Apr, 16:37, David of Broadway
wrote:
Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

(to work out zones you need to know the nominal single fares, which I
don't think are online any more)

I could only find the PDF of the leaflet:
http://tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/1071.aspx

Mr Thant wrote:
Similarly,
there a few journeys where you have to touch a reader halfway through,
but it doesn't affect the fare calculation (eg If the fare is set as
not via Z1, and you use an out-of-station interchange in Z1, it
doesn't increase the fare).

Very interesting. Examples?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On 30 Apr, 19:42, David of Broadway
wrote:
Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

U

Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 19:42, David of Broadway
wrote:
Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal? What if I have a Z2-6 Oyster-based
Travelcard? (It wouldn't be legal on a Z2-6 paper Travelcard without an
extension ticket.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:47:16 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal?

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there). But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

There seems to be nothing in the TfL Conditions of Carriage
specifically saying you can't do this. They say: "You can use any of
our services if you have [...] sufficient money on your Oyster card to
pay as you go." The only requirements are to touch in at the start of
the journey and touch out at the end. You are liable to a Penalty Fare
or prosecution if (and, I assume, only if) you cannot produce "an
Oyster card showing a record of the start of your trip".

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

What if I have a Z2-6 Oyster-based
Travelcard? (It wouldn't be legal on a Z2-6 paper Travelcard without an
extension ticket.)

Probably the same situation, although this time you should have no
problem exiting at the same station you started your journey.

asdf wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:47:16 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Very interesting. Examples?
I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a
Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal?

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

BART (in the San Francisco area) explicitly penalizes this sort of usage
with a so-called excursion fare for exiting from the same station you
entered at, which is IIRC higher than the highest normal fare in the
system. Of course, flat-fare systems neither know nor care -- if I had
lots of money to throw away, I could spend all day in New York entering
and exiting and reentering and reexiting the same station.

But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

There seems to be nothing in the TfL Conditions of Carriage
specifically saying you can't do this. They say: "You can use any of
our services if you have [...] sufficient money on your Oyster card to
pay as you go." The only requirements are to touch in at the start of
the journey and touch out at the end. You are liable to a Penalty Fare
or prosecution if (and, I assume, only if) you cannot produce "an
Oyster card showing a record of the start of your trip".

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

But that begs the question, IMO. Is the above behavior fraudulent?

(An obvious example of fraud would be using an Oyster-based Travelcard
and not touching out at a station outside your zones where the gates are
open or where there are no gates at all. But if you simply turn around
and return to your zones without exiting the station, it's not so clear
to me.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On 30 Apr 2007 09:47:08 -0700, Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 16:37, David of Broadway
wrote:
Is Notting Hill Gate to Heathrow treated as Z1-6 or Z2-6? How about
Notting Hill Gate to Acton Town?

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

Highbury & Islington to Canary Wharf (or most other DLR stations)
is an interesting one. It gives an Oyster fare of 1.00 at any time
but don't all likely routes involve zone 1?

David

On Tue, 1 May 2007 09:42:04 +0100, David Walters wrote:

Both are charged as via Zone 1 according to the fares finder:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...07/farefinder/

Highbury & Islington to Canary Wharf (or most other DLR stations)
is an interesting one. It gives an Oyster fare of 1.00 at any time
but don't all likely routes involve zone 1?

I'd agree. The only reason I can think of is so that holders of Z23
Travelcards on Oyster don't get charged a £1.50 excess if they travel
via the NLL to Stratford.