Mr Thant wrote:
Similarly,
there a few journeys where you have to touch a reader halfway through,
but it doesn't affect the fare calculation (eg If the fare is set as
not via Z1, and you use an out-of-station interchange in Z1, it
doesn't increase the fare).

Very interesting. Examples?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On 30 Apr, 19:42, David of Broadway
wrote:
Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

U

Mr Thant wrote:
On 30 Apr, 19:42, David of Broadway
wrote:
Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal? What if I have a Z2-6 Oyster-based
Travelcard? (It wouldn't be legal on a Z2-6 paper Travelcard without an
extension ticket.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:47:16 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Very interesting. Examples?

I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a

Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal?

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there). But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

There seems to be nothing in the TfL Conditions of Carriage
specifically saying you can't do this. They say: "You can use any of
our services if you have [...] sufficient money on your Oyster card to
pay as you go." The only requirements are to touch in at the start of
the journey and touch out at the end. You are liable to a Penalty Fare
or prosecution if (and, I assume, only if) you cannot produce "an
Oyster card showing a record of the start of your trip".

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

What if I have a Z2-6 Oyster-based
Travelcard? (It wouldn't be legal on a Z2-6 paper Travelcard without an
extension ticket.)

Probably the same situation, although this time you should have no
problem exiting at the same station you started your journey.

asdf wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:47:16 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

Very interesting. Examples?
I was thinking of this:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....305d52b01c0c2a
Ah! I read that when it was first posted, found it very interesting
back then, and promptly forgot about it.

And if this is all perfectly legal, then the next logical question is:

Say I'm in Z6 and I have some time to kill. If I ride into Z1 and back
out to the station I started at (within 2 hours), the Oyster system
won't know that I ever left Z6 and will charge me the intra-Z6 fare.
But is such a ride legal?

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

BART (in the San Francisco area) explicitly penalizes this sort of usage
with a so-called excursion fare for exiting from the same station you
entered at, which is IIRC higher than the highest normal fare in the
system. Of course, flat-fare systems neither know nor care -- if I had
lots of money to throw away, I could spend all day in New York entering
and exiting and reentering and reexiting the same station.

But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

There seems to be nothing in the TfL Conditions of Carriage
specifically saying you can't do this. They say: "You can use any of
our services if you have [...] sufficient money on your Oyster card to
pay as you go." The only requirements are to touch in at the start of
the journey and touch out at the end. You are liable to a Penalty Fare
or prosecution if (and, I assume, only if) you cannot produce "an
Oyster card showing a record of the start of your trip".

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

But that begs the question, IMO. Is the above behavior fraudulent?

(An obvious example of fraud would be using an Oyster-based Travelcard
and not touching out at a station outside your zones where the gates are
open or where there are no gates at all. But if you simply turn around
and return to your zones without exiting the station, it's not so clear
to me.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

On Thu, 03 May 2007 13:15:19 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

I don't think the system would like you finishing at the same station
you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

Tough luck, I suppose. You'd have to ask the gateline staff to let you
back out, then phone the Oyster helpline and see if they'll remove the
£4 charge.

But let's suppose instead that
you end your journey one station from where you started, and walk
home.

The main sticking point is this:
"10.2. If we believe that you have used or tried to use any ticket or
Oyster card to defraud us we may cancel and not re-issue it. If this
happens, we will not give you a refund of the remaining value of the
ticket, or refund any money or deposit paid for the Oyster card."

So it's worth keeping your PAYG balance low if doing this, in case you
run into an unsympathetic ticket inspector.

But that begs the question, IMO. Is the above behavior fraudulent?

I don't think I can give an objective answer to that question. My
point was that if, *in the opinion of the particular ticket inspector*
at that particular time, you are committing fraud (by making a "Z1-6
journey" but only paying for a Z6 one), that's enough to get you your
Oyster confiscated, along with all your PAYG credit.

On Thu, 03 May 2007 13:15:19 -0400, David of Broadway wrote:

you started at - I imagine either the gates would reject your card on
exit (this happens if you enter and then try to leave immediately), or
you'd be charged £8 for two unresolved journeys (one starting at the
station, the other finishing there).

Really? What if you enter the station and then realize that you forgot
something important at home or in the office?

BART (in the San Francisco area) explicitly penalizes this sort of usage
with a so-called excursion fare for exiting from the same station you
entered at, which is IIRC higher than the highest normal fare in the
system. Of course, flat-fare systems neither know nor care -- if I had
lots of money to throw away, I could spend all day in New York entering
and exiting and reentering and reexiting the same station.

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.
The article goes on to say that an average of 140 people per day are
charged £8 in this way.

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged. More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.

So if there is a delay of 20 minutes and then you give up...?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Big programs are a bug."
-- Geoff Collyer

asdf wrote:

Further to my previous reply, there is an article in today's London
Lite (page 17) about this issue. Apparently, the way it works now is
that if you touch in, change your mind about travelling (due to delays
or for any other reason), and touch back out again within 15 minutes,
you are not charged.

No charge at all? That's very nice!

More than 15 minutes, and you get an £8 charge.
The article goes on to say that an average of 140 people per day are
charged £8 in this way.

You may recall that I've expressed strong opposition to the £4 charge.
My opinion has not changed!
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA